Can you be baptized by an unbelieving person?

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bluejean_bible

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2025
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#61

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
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#63
I think it says you cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the spirit, does that mean if it's necessary you can be baptized by an unbelieving person? Let's say the only option for a church was one with people who are unbelieving, can you be baptized by someone there?
Further, can you baptize yourself? There are no scriptures that deal with either of these issues. The only thing we can scripturally assume is that Christians (those who have been baptized into Christ), baptized new believers. There are no records nor are there qualifications in the bible for baptizers. The Ephesians were re-baptized by Paul as recorded in Acts 19, having only been "deciples" and initially baptized unto John's baptism. And Aquila and Priscilla, who were newly converted believers, retaught Apollos who was only baptized unto John's baptism, and it is assumed also re-baptized him. And note that Apollos is later referred to as an apostle too by Paul in 1 Cor 4:9 which most people don't realize. So, it's a bit of a vague issue as to who qualifies scripturaly as an authorized baptizer, or is there such a thing? The important thing is that you believe and are baptized.
 
Jul 15, 2024
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#64
I think it says you cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the spirit, does that mean if it's necessary you can be baptized by an unbelieving person? Let's say the only option for a church was one with people who are unbelieving, can you be baptized by someone there?
John 3: 5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The two different kinds of birth are of water and of the Spirit. "born of water" is explained in verse 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This verse also explains the same two types of birth. "Born of water" means "born of the flesh" and "born of the Spirit" means "a spiritual rebirth" which happens when we receive the Holy Spirit and become a new person with a changed motivation for living. It is Jesus Christ who baptizes in the name of the Holy Spirit, not people. John baptized with water, but someone greater than him will be baptizing with the Holy Spirit. Baptism with water is an old Jewish tradition and the first Christians were orthodox Jews. The Jews still practice water baptism for spiritual cleansing to this day.
 
Jul 15, 2024
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#65
Matt 28: 19-20 Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age. Amen.
It is
through preaching that the Father baptizes people by choosing them and granting them the repentance necessary to turn to Him for forgiveness of sins committed. It is through preaching that the Son baptizes in His name when people hear, understand, and believe that, through Jesus Christ, their sins can be erased through forgiveness. And, it is through preaching that people can understand that when people get baptized by Christ in the name of the Holy Spirit, they receive a portal through which both Father and Son can enter their beings in order to fill them with the same love that they share and to motivate them to obey the Spirit of the Law in order to perfect them for entrance to God's Kingdom. When you get baptized with water, sadly, you are just getting wet and following an old Jewish tradition.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,817
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#66
I think it says you cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the spirit, does that mean if it's necessary you can be baptized by an unbelieving person? Let's say the only option for a church was one with people who are unbelieving, can you be baptized by someone there?
Problem 1: The Scripture you tried to use has zero to do with water baptism.

Nowhere in Scripture does it discuss being baptized by an unbeliever into "todays Church." People were baptized under Jewish Law/times, but I suspect they were considered believers as the New Covenant Grace had not yet been established.

Now, directly speaking at what you are suggesting: TODAY!!!!! A new christian seeking to be water baptized in accordance with the teaching of Jesus must be baptized by a believer. Usually a Pastor, Preacher, but could be a senior member of the Church.

Why ever would you even ask such a question? Do you have some Instruction Booklet from Atheist Ammunition to Defeat Christianism? Hey, wait, YOU aren't the Author, are ya?
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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#67
It is through preaching that the Father baptizes people by choosing them and granting them the repentance necessary to turn to Him for forgiveness of sins committed. It is through preaching that the Son baptizes in His name when people hear, understand, and believe that, through Jesus Christ, their sins can be erased through forgiveness.
Then, I suppose all those people, Jews and Gentiles alike, that saw the essential need for water baptism, (like JESUS taught) were simply misguided, and were doing it wrong?

Nowhere does it say that "baptism" is simply being preached to... scripture is very plain about water baptism...

There was NO concept of any other kind of baptism... EVERYONE in the first century KNEW what baptism was. It was immersion in water.
To try to come back 2000 years later and try to apply other meanings to it is simply an attempt to justify an incorrect teaching.

When John told the people that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire, they had no concept of what he was saying. Baptism, to everyone at that time, was immersion in water.

Jesus even baptized people in water, for forgiveness of sins, as John did. It was only at Pentecost that the water baptism for the forgiveness of sins also included receiving the Spirit... as Peter told them... and as Jesus promised. He told us that after he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, he would send the Spirit to live in us..
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#68
Then, I suppose all those people, Jews and Gentiles alike, that saw the essential need for water baptism, (like JESUS taught) were simply misguided, and were doing it wrong?

Nowhere does it say that "baptism" is simply being preached to... scripture is very plain about water baptism...

There was NO concept of any other kind of baptism... EVERYONE in the first century KNEW what baptism was. It was immersion in water.
To try to come back 2000 years later and try to apply other meanings to it is simply an attempt to justify an incorrect teaching.

When John told the people that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire, they had no concept of what he was saying. Baptism, to everyone at that time, was immersion in water.

Jesus even baptized people in water, for forgiveness of sins, as John did. It was only at Pentecost that the water baptism for the forgiveness of sins also included receiving the Spirit... as Peter told them... and as Jesus promised. He told us that after he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, he would send the Spirit to live in us..
Yes, everyone sought salvation via works/law/water baptism when Jesus lived, and he had a heck of a time getting them to realize those were optional externals and what counted was inner spiritual love, but the folks crucified him. However, Paul kept on trying to persuade people to accept the Gospel, which superseded the Old Covenant per HB 7:18-10:1.
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
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#69
Yes, everyone sought salvation via works/law/water baptism when Jesus lived, and he had a heck of a time getting them to realize those were optional externals and what counted was inner spiritual love, but the folks crucified him. However, Paul kept on trying to persuade people to accept the Gospel, which superseded the Old Covenant per HB 7:18-10:1.
Read Acts 8 and the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch. Philip preached the gospel to him. Read closely the exchange between the two. Why did the Ethiopian eunuch ask about baptism as they were near water? It's obvious that Philip's preaching of the gospel to him included baptism and the need for it as relates to salvation.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,374
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#70
Yes, everyone sought salvation via works/law/water baptism when Jesus lived,
Being baptized is not "seeking salvation through works"..... Being baptized is obeying Jesus (God's) commandment.

The Jews did not get circumcised in order to "become Jewish".... they did it because it was God's commandment. They did not see it as a "work" they had to do, it was obedience to God.

You can either choose to obey God's commandment, or you can make up your own "recipe" for salvation, and try to justify it through picking and choosing verses that by themselves appear to support your flawed recipe.

I choose to do my best to obey God's will... baptism is not an "optional" action
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#71
only was Jesus baptized himself, but he also baptized others.
Jesus did not water baptize anyone... see John 4:2 :) The Logos link will appear shortly...
 
Jul 15, 2024
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#72
Read Acts 8 and the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch. Philip preached the gospel to him. Read closely the exchange between the two. Why did the Ethiopian eunuch ask about baptism as they were near water? It's obvious that Philip's preaching of the gospel to him included baptism and the need for it as relates to salvation.
Both Phillip and Peter were Christian Jews that still attended the Jewish Temple and celebrated all the Jewish customs and holidays. Water baptism was one of them.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,374
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#73
Jesus did not water baptize anyone... see John 4:2 :) The Logos link will appear shortly...
.... in that story, he was not...
look at John 3....

22 Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people.

23 At this time John the Baptist was baptizing at Aenon, near Salim, because there was plenty of water there; and people kept coming to him for baptism. 24 (This was before John was thrown into prison.) 25 A debate broke out between John’s disciples and a certain Jew[i] over ceremonial cleansing. 26 So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Rabbi, the man you met on the other side of the Jordan River, the one you identified as the Messiah, is also baptizing people.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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#74
Both Phillip and Peter were Christian Jews that still attended the Jewish Temple and celebrated all the Jewish customs and holidays. Water baptism was one of them.
I suppose you would say the same thing about Jesus..... who instructed his disciples to do exactly that....
It was simply because Jesus was Jewish....

skeptical .jpeg
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#75
.... in that story, he was not...
look at John 3....

22 Then Jesus and his disciples left Jerusalem and went into the Judean countryside. Jesus spent some time with them there, baptizing people.

23 At this time John the Baptist was baptizing at Aenon, near Salim, because there was plenty of water there; and people kept coming to him for baptism. 24 (This was before John was thrown into prison.) 25 A debate broke out between John’s disciples and a certain Jew[i] over ceremonial cleansing. 26 So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Rabbi, the man you met on the other side of the Jordan River, the one you identified as the Messiah, is also baptizing people.
I would think the parenthetical add-on applies to earlier also, because it is said, Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard
that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John
... the stories are very close together... but you could be right... though I think it unlikely, given also that John the baptizer clarifies to say Jesus will baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit... he is making a clear distinction between baptizing with water as he (and the disciples) does, and how Jesus will baptize...
 

DJT_47

Well-known member
Oct 20, 2022
1,180
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#76
Both Phillip and Peter were Christian Jews that still attended the Jewish Temple and celebrated all the Jewish customs and holidays. Water baptism was one of them.
Just to clarify, my point was that part of Philip's preaching of the gospel to the eunuch included the need to be baptized, which is why the Ethiopian eunuch inquired about it and the water they were near
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
7,374
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#77
I would think the parenthetical add-on applies to earlier also, because it is said, Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard
that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John
... the stories are very close together... but you could be right... though I think it unlikely, given also that John the baptizer clarifies to say Jesus will baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit... he is making a clear distinction between baptizing with water as he (and the disciples) does, and how Jesus will baptize...
possibly...
Personally, I think that John was being a little hyperbolic when describing Jesus' baptism, purposely. I think he was saying, my baptism is only water, but Jesus adds the Spirit and fire.... which I assume described what happened at Pentecost. The 3000 at Pentecost were water baptized as well... after the disciples received the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit, being able to speak to all the different nationalities and be understood by all of them.... the Spirit descended on them as tongues of fire.... I don't know of any other baptism that included fire...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
63,277
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#78
possibly...
Personally, I think that John was being a little hyperbolic when describing Jesus' baptism, purposely. I think he was saying, my baptism is only water, but Jesus adds the Spirit and fire.... which I assume described what happened at Pentecost. The 3000 at Pentecost were water baptized as well... after the disciples received the miraculous manifestation of the Spirit, being able to speak to all the different nationalities and be understood by all of them.... the Spirit descended on them as tongues of fire.... I don't know of any other baptism that included fire...
Yes, I agree, all of Jesus' followers would have been water baptized probably immediately upon hearing of the necessity of it...
 

Beckworth

Well-known member
May 15, 2019
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#79
The word of God says nothing about the person doing the baptizing. It is not about them; it is about the one seeking baptism. Whether the person doing the baptizing is an atheist, an unbeliever, a Christian or a person of another religion, does not affect the one being baptized. As long as the one seeking baptism is a capable believer, their baptism is the right mode (immersion), for the right reason ( the remission of sins, Acts 2:38) and done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they have fulfilled God’s requirements. His promise is to forgive them if all their past sins—no matter what they have done. And as we all know, God does not lie, nor fail to keep His promises.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
4,194
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#80
Being baptized is not "seeking salvation through works"..... Being baptized is obeying Jesus (God's) commandment.

The Jews did not get circumcised in order to "become Jewish".... they did it because it was God's commandment. They did not see it as a "work" they had to do, it was obedience to God.

You can either choose to obey God's commandment, or you can make up your own "recipe" for salvation, and try to justify it through picking and choosing verses that by themselves appear to support your flawed recipe.

I choose to do my best to obey God's will... baptism is not an "optional" action
No, Jesus' commandment is JN 13:34-35, so the command in MT 28:19 must be a hangover from OT days.
Don't get me wrong, because I affirm water baptism, but as a symbolic act, not a sacrament.