Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[reneweddaybyday]

I've kept our exchange perfectly straight.

Rufus ... as pointed out to you, I discussed those referred to in John 17:20-23 five days prior to the 11 referred to in John 17:9.

Jesus prayed for for two groups of disciples, according to Jn 17:20. It was you, more recently in 33,298, who said that He prayed only for the 11.

here is the discussion which led to my pointing out that Jesus prayed "only for the 11" in John 17:9:

Rufus said: ​

Thirdly, this explains why Jesus didn't pray for the world in Jn 17:9.​

reneweddaybyday said: ​

The Lord Jesus Christ prayed for those who were with Him in the garden just before He was crucified ... that would be the 11 apostles after Judas left.​

You brought up those prayed for in John 17:9.

You were not referring to the "two groups of disciples, according to Jn 17:20".

It is you who can't keep the discussion straight!

You continue to argue in your never-ending avoidance of the more substantive matters you fail to grasp/comprehend ... and in doing so, you prove once again that what I stated in Post 33,320 was true and accurate:

reneweddaybyday said:​

you veer away from the point concerning the inestimable value of the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ and its sufficiency to cover the sin of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ...​

​

you veer away from the point concerning the breadth, length, depth, and height of God's incomprehensible love ...​

​

you veer away from what is written in John 17 ... what the Lord Jesus Christ taught His apostles on the very night He allowed Himself to be taken to be crucified ... to conflate it with what is written in John 10 ... what the Lord Jesus Christ taught the pharisees who overheard Him speak to the blind man He had just led to faith ...​

​

you veer away from the fact that what I believe does not equal my having "perverted" anything written in Scripture ...​

​

your continuous reverting back to your same ole, same ole "talking points" due to your inability to engage in meaningful dialogue is duly noted.​

repeat ... "your continuous reverting back to your same ole, same ole "talking points" due to your inability to engage in meaningful dialogue is duly noted".
.

 

[cv5]

Rufus ... as pointed out to you, I discussed those referred to in John 17:20-23 five days prior to the 11 referred to in John 17:9.





here is the discussion which led to my pointing out that Jesus prayed "only for the 11" in John 17:9:

Rufus said: ​

Thirdly, this explains why Jesus didn't pray for the world in Jn 17:9.​

reneweddaybyday said: ​

The Lord Jesus Christ prayed for those who were with Him in the garden just before He was crucified ... that would be the 11 apostles after Judas left.​

You brought up those prayed for in John 17:9.

You were not referring to the "two groups of disciples, according to Jn 17:20".





You continue to argue in your never-ending avoidance of the more substantive matters you fail to grasp/comprehend ... and in doing so, you prove once again that what I stated in Post 33,320 was true and accurate:

reneweddaybyday said:​

you veer away from the point concerning the inestimable value of the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ and its sufficiency to cover the sin of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ...​

​

you veer away from the point concerning the breadth, length, depth, and height of God's incomprehensible love ...​

​

you veer away from what is written in John 17 ... what the Lord Jesus Christ taught His apostles on the very night He allowed Himself to be taken to be crucified ... to conflate it with what is written in John 10 ... what the Lord Jesus Christ taught the pharisees who overheard Him speak to the blind man He had just led to faith ...​

​

you veer away from the fact that what I believe does not equal my having "perverted" anything written in Scripture ...​

​

your continuous reverting back to your same ole, same ole "talking points" due to your inability to engage in meaningful dialogue is duly noted.​

repeat ... "your continuous reverting back to your same ole, same ole "talking points" due to your inability to engage in meaningful dialogue is duly noted".
.

Imagine never learning anything ever despite vast thrilling opportunities.

Such is the dismal reality of poor @Rufus

 

[cv5]

Enjoy the freewill party going on here @Rufus buddy. Or not wawawaaaaa...

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5659445

https://christianchat.com/threads/can-we-really-exercise-free-will.218061/post-5659451

 

[Genez]

Nope. You're conflating what is eternal with what is temporal (Time). God's will, plan, purposes are not dependent on any part of his creation. Eternity trumps temporal reality.

Hey, dummy.
I just finished saying that.

You're reading my lines.

It makes you sound crazy when you do that.

Are you using A.I.?

 

[Genez]

What about other people nerves do you think there as Good yours after you get on them ?

I refuse to live in, and agree to, your unreality.

And, you keep inviting me back in.

Do you think you are as spiritually mature as you ever can be?
You can be much more mature than you are now...

Your biggest enemy is to think you are already as mature in Christ as one needs to be.
You are going through typical growing pains.

Growing pains = having ones own weaknesses exposed to oneself.

 

[sawdust]

Lean not on your own understanding do you recall those words?

Come let us reason together do you not recall those words?

The fact remains God gave us brains to think with and He expects us to use them in all their capacity, reason, imagination, problem solving etc. We are to bring our mind to the word of God in the filling of the Spirit and think with the whole counsel of God. To do such requires an ongoing process of study in learning the word and testing the spirits while staying in fellowship with the Lord.

God appointed teachers for a reason and it wasn't so people could think they can know it all by solely relying on the Spirit to drop pearls of wisdom from heaven.

 

[Jordon]

[

I refuse to live in, and agree to, your unreality.

And, you keep inviting me back in.

Do you think you are as spiritually mature as you ever can be?
You can be much more mature than you are now...

Your biggest enemy is to think you are already as mature in Christ as one needs to be.
You are going through typical growing pains.

Growing pains = having ones own weaknesses exposed to oneself.

honestly you need to give your head a wobble, you've been arguing that long, you've gone mad. I wouldn't be surprised if your the type that froths at the mouth when they rant

 

[sawdust]

but it also is a still small voice that speaks truth to our hearts

That still small voice is actually the word being recalled to our mind which can only happen as we know the word. Ignorance of the word is what allows any spirit to speak to one's heart and be deceived.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Maybe it is just because I am tired and could not sleep last night but what exactly is the point you are making here? and also can you explain this?

1. 
   1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul said he taught the gospel to the church at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 2:1-2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Paul taught Jesus Christ and Him crucified ... which is basically the gospel. I believe this was taught in the general congregation.

The preaching of the gospel is needful for growth and maturity. And I believe no matter what level of maturity the believer finds him or herself, we should all desire the sincere milk of the Word that we may grow thereby (1 Peter 2:2).


Beginning at vs 6, Paul stated he also taught believers who were more spiritually mature:

1 Corinthians 2:6-16

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect [Greek = teleios = of full age]: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

These verses speak of spiritual matters which go beyond the scope of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.


Paul then went on to discuss the carnal believers and what he taught to them:

1 Corinthians 3:1-4

1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul could not discuss the more spiritual matters with the carnal believers in the church at Corinth ...

Clearly Paul fed the less mature believers and the carnal believers the milk of the Word ... the gospel of Christ.

Clearly Paul fed the more mature believers the meat of the Word ... those matters discussed in 1 Cor 2:6-16 which go beyond the scope of the gospel and/or the milk of the Word.

To equate the gospel of Christ with the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom is improper. Belief in the gospel of Christ is the first step on the path to more and more insight into those things which eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love Him ... the deep things of God.

Hope/pray this helps ...

.

 

[Genez]

how can I know unless someone show me?

[
honestly you need to give your head a wobble, you've been arguing that long, you've gone mad. I wouldn't be surprised if your the type that froths at the mouth when they rant

Is that the very best you can come up with?

Are you an introvert?

 

[Jordon]

how can I know unless someone show me?


Is that the very best you can come up with?

Are you an introvert?

yes I focus on inner feelings it's called holding on to your heart, rather than walking around like a headless chicken, like you do with your head between your legs, like you do. You go steaming in to arguments converting them into a babbling argument, because you've been converted by a monkey

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Imagine never learning anything ever despite vast thrilling opportunities.

Such is the dismal reality of poor Rufus

Rufus projects onto me what he is doing himself ... we've seen it before and we'll see it again ... there's nothing new under the sun ...

meanwhile, Rufus obscures the point made in John 17 (that believers are made perfect in one, that the world may know that God sent the Lord Jesus Christ, and believers are to reveal this truth to the unbelieving world) for the fleshly satisfaction of projecting his poor behavior onto me (as if no one is aware of what he's doing) ... smh

.

 

[Genez]

yes I focus on inner feelings it's called holding on to your heart, rather than walking around like a headless chicken, like you do with your head between your legs, like you do. You go steaming in to arguments converting them into a babbling argument, because you've been converted by a monkey

You have a goal to reach....
Because the way you act?
Says that you are not being real.

And, you are not sure how to achieve it.

What is your objective?
Do you even have one?

 

[Jordon]

You have a goal to reach....
Because the way you act?
Says that you are not being real.

And, you are not sure how to achieve it.

What is your objective?
Do you even have one?

I'm a believing monkey your a silly monkey like these

 

[Genez]

I'm a believing monkey your a silly monkey like these

OK... so all I am going to get from you is empty-headed videos.

 

[Genez]

I'm a believing monkey your a silly monkey like these

Freudian slip...

You are really making fun of Christians who are able to believe....

I do have you pegged as a counterfeit.

 

[sawdust]

Freudian slip...

You are really making fun of Christians who are able to believe....

I do have you pegged as a counterfeit.

If you keep feeding the trolls they will get so fat they will never get out the door.

It's always better they leave.

 

[BillyBob]

We were not chosen for salvation....
Rather....
God chose where our salvation would land us when He knew when in history we would chose to believe.

The insidious deception of Satan, and what lies at the core of every human being by nature, is the lie that grace empowers you to do what needs to be done to achieve salvation, rather than grace alone saving you. The works doctrine actually aggrandizes man, in that it teaches a man is saved by what he does, not what is done to him and for him.

 

[Jordon]

Freudian slip...

You are really making fun of Christians who are able to believe....

I do have you pegged as a counterfeit.

awe you've got yourself into rut, you just can't see being Christian is about sharing not insulting, you have the wrong idea. You make friends in Christ not enemies out of Christ, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking your always insulting people.

Just like this little monkey knows he can feel your next insult coming in the air tonight.


[

]

 

[sawdust]

The insidious deception of Satan, and what lies at the core of every human being by nature, is the lie that grace empowers you to do what needs to be done to achieve salvation, rather than grace alone saving you. The works doctrine actually aggrandizes man, in that it teaches a man is saved by what he does, not what is done to him and for him.

Mate it has nothing to do with Satan's lies. It is by design people believe. It is how God designed us to live. One either believes the truth when shown or they remain in the dark believing the lie

Every decision we make is based on what we believe. Why you find it so appalling that people should live their lives because they believe as if it is some foreign act to humanity, baffles my mind.