Why? because I tell the truth? You think those in the lake of fire will be "rightly giving" God any glory?
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Why? because I tell the truth? You think those in the lake of fire will be "rightly giving" God any glory?
"If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now. It's just a Spring Clean for the May queen."
Yes. God is glorified both in His grace as well as His justice.
In John 17:9, Jesus prayed for the 11 apostles who were with Him just prior to His crucifixion.
John 17:6-9
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
vs 6 – refers to the 11 apostles remaining after Judas left. These were the men the Lord Jesus Christ specifically prayed for at the time ... just after supper ended and prior to giving Himself over to be crucified.
Rufus ... do you not recall what was submitted just last week in Post 32,858? I pointed out to you that these verses had been discussed back in August ...Rufus said:
Posted Dec 27, 2025 ... reneweddaybyday said:
yes context counts ... from Post 8,713 submitted back in August ...
He prayed that those who believe in Him would be one ... the Father in the Son ... the Son in the Father ... the believers one in us... that the world may know that Thou hast sent me .
knowing does not equal believing ... it's only in believing that one is saved.
An unbeliever reading this thread ... would he or she know that the believers who post in this thread are one in us ??? ... would the unbelieving reader know that Thou [God] hast sent Me [the Lord Jesus Christ] ??? ... I don't think so ... not the way some treat their fellow brothers and sisters ... feeding the flesh, but is a poor witness on those who engage in such behavior ...
not much has changed concerning the way brothers and sisters in Christ treat fellow brothers and sisters in Christ ... just sayin'
John 17:18-23 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
John 17:18-23 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
it is clear your claim that I "told [you] that Jesus prayed only for the 11" is in error. Inasmuch as you continuously remind us how "humble" you are, will you "explicitly and publicly admit" to your error ???
Rufus, I pointed out that the record in John 10 is completely separate from the record in John 17 ... and if you don't see that, perhaps you should pray to God that He would open your eyes to that fact.Rufus said:
repeating again for your edification ... and please note the comment concerning John 10:16 (bolded here but not bolded in original post submitted by me):
because the point taught by Jesus to the pharisees in John 10 was that they (the scribes and pharisees) were the thieves and robbers spoken of in John 10:1, 8 ... the stranger spoken of in John 10:5 ... the hireling/wolf spoken of in John 10:12 ...
And I do understand the truth of John 10:16 ... it's just that all verses referenced in your post were from John 17 (6 verses) ... except the two references to John 10. If your point can be made from John 17, why switch from John 17 to John 10? ... two completely separate events ...
and John 17 is much more substantive in that Jesus knew His time was short ... He was praying in the presence of His apostles ... those who were believers ... whereas in John 10, Jesus was speaking to pharisees.
you, by your "mighty and powerful "freewill" don't want to" read Scripture just as it is laid out by the Author.Rufus said:
you prefer to conflate what is written "here" with what is written "there" ... with no thought or consideration paid to what the Author intended ... then refer to your re-writing of Scripture as "harmonizing" ... and all the while you berate those who prefer to read and understand Scripture just as it is written by the Author ... smh
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
.
1 Corinthians 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
... but you by your "freewill" lop off whatever part you do not want to hear from ... smh
.
yep ... gotta put this date on our calendars ... Rufus and rdbd agreed on something ... hah!!!
.
rogerg said:
reneweddaybyday said:
and if you agree with rogerg, that's your belief and no one believes as you claim either.
.
since by your belief you saved yourself, what part did Christ play in it?
reneweddaybyday said:
that's your belief rogerg as no one has stated what you claim ... all have claimed salvation by grace through faith ...
your comment does not negate the fact that no one believes as rogerg has claimed.
and if you agree with rogerg, that's your belief and no one believes as you claim either.
.
The safeguard does more than allow a person to listen to God directly.
satan was unable to mount his attack against Job because of God's hedge.
Look again at the verses from 2 Kings 6 I showed you ... there's a whole spiritual realm to which we are oblivious. God's angels are ministering spirits ... they go where God tells them to go and do what God tells them to do.
and let's not forget this great and precious promise to us in our day and time ... greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. (1 John 4:4).
ok ... I thought you were saying Job lived during the time of Moses.Jordon said:
Of the Israelites that left Egypt, only Joshua and Caleb and those younger than 20 years entered the promised land (Num 14:29-31).Jordon said:
While they did not enter into the promised land at that time, God did take care of them in their 40-year wandering ... God led them with a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day (Neh 9:19) ... God fed them manna from heaven and provided water (Neh 9:20) ... their clothes and shoes did not wear out (Neh 9:21). God is so faithful to His promises.Jordon said:
when the children of Israel refused to go into the promised land, God told Moses He would smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they (Num 14:12).Jordon said:
Moses then interceded for the people (Num 14:13-20) and God was merciful, sparing the people.
However, God chastened the people ... which resulted in their wandering for 40 years before entering the promised land. They could have entered the promised land 40 days after they left Egypt, but because of their rebellion against entering the land and against Joshua and Caleb (two witnesses), they wandered a year for each day (Num 14:34).
.
600.000 men where left to die in the wilderness, because there will was not changed is the bottom line pet, that's all I'm saying really. But God did put mercy in there hearts, they showed it in numerous places. the other 600.000 men who did enter the promise land where given a new heart because God changed there will.The safeguard does more than allow a person to listen to God directly.
satan was unable to mount his attack against Job because of God's hedge.
Look again at the verses from 2 Kings 6 I showed you ... there's a whole spiritual realm to which we are oblivious. God's angels are ministering spirits ... they go where God tells them to go and do what God tells them to do.
and let's not forget this great and precious promise to us in our day and time ... greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. (1 John 4:4).
ok ... I thought you were saying Job lived during the time of Moses.
Of the Israelites that left Egypt, only Joshua and Caleb and those younger than 20 years entered the promised land (Num 14:29-31).
While they did not enter into the promised land at that time, God did take care of them in their 40-year wandering ... God led them with a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day (Neh 9:19) ... God fed them manna from heaven and provided water (Neh 9:20) ... their clothes and shoes did not wear out (Neh 9:21). God is so faithful to His promises.
when the children of Israel refused to go into the promised land, God told Moses He would smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they (Num 14:12).
Moses then interceded for the people (Num 14:13-20) and God was merciful, sparing the people.
However, God chastened the people ... which resulted in their wandering for 40 years before entering the promised land. They could have entered the promised land 40 days after they left Egypt, but because of their rebellion against entering the land and against Joshua and Caleb (two witnesses), they wandered a year for each day (Num 14:34).
.
do you realize that there were some believers who were not allowed to enter the promised land, Jordon? ... it was not just unbelievers who died in the wandering in the wilderness.
chief among the believers was Moses himself because of his disobedience in striking the rock ... however, God, in His great grace, allowed Moses to see the land before he died:
Deuteronomy 32:48-51
48 And the LORD spake unto Moses that selfsame day, saying,
49 Get thee up into this mountain Abarim, unto mount Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, that is over against Jericho; and behold the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel for a possession:
50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
51 Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.
Aaron did not enter because of the incident at Meribah (Num 20:24).
Miriam ... a prophetess ... died before entering the land (Num 20:1).
The 70 elders ... they were believers ... I do not believe all of them entered (not sure if any of them entered).
Did you know that the children of Israel crossed the Jordan River on dry ground to enter the promised land ...Jordon said:
Joshua 3:17 And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.
.
How are they, who have never done a thing right all their life, rightly giving God glory in their everlasting death?
You have a very strange sense of giving God glory.
I think you confuse giving God glory with God being glorified through being proved right.