Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

Understand that mans free will lives in the flesh that is corrupted.

Understand you are wrong on this. The will is a function of the soul, not the flesh. Our bodies have no capacity to make choices. They work autonomously. You do not choose to make your heart beat or your digestive system to function.

The sin nature (law of sin) that is in the flesh works similar to instinct in an animal. The difference lies in it's leading direction. Where instinct in an animal pushes it to be the animal it is, (ie. the instincts of a dog make it behave like a dog), the law of sin in our flesh push us to be not human (ie. to behave as not made in the image and likeness of God as exemplified in the life of Christ). When that is coupled with our ignorance of God (spiritual death), it becomes a recipe for the death of our humanity.

Christ says if you want to be great in the Kingdom of God you must be the servant of all. The sin nature says if you want to be great you must serve self first, forget the rest.

It is that self-serving instinct that is the sin nature at work in our flesh that ultimately we have no control over that deceives our thinking which is easy to do because we lack the knowledge of the truth of God.

This is why salvation is by grace and freedom comes through Christ who is the Truth. When the ignorance of our thinking is replaced with the truth of God and we live by grace in the power of the Holy Spirit, we are made free to be truly human in all it's perfect God given intent.

You can quote John 1:13 all day long but the reality is you have no idea what it means. The soul is not born corrupted because it is created by God, therefore the will is not corrupted. It is however bound by the sin nature at work in the body and therefore not free at all except for the Lord's intervention which He always does from the moment a soul can think. Then and only then (without grace) would the soul become completely depraved and beyond redemption. That would include one's thinking, emotions and will.

The "will of the flesh" has nothing to do with having the body make choices. It has to do with physical impulse or physical desire. What we would call today in some instances, chemistry, other instances, lust which the mind then follows under the body's impulses. The choice (will) remains in the mind, not the body.

 

[Genez]

And then there is what the Bible has to say on the matter. Some people are interested in that...

An illogical premise presented dogmatically has no refutation for a mind that is closed.

 

[Genez]

Learning about ourselves is as equally a spiritual issue! Sin isn't a spiritual issue? Our moral conduct isn't a spiritual issue? Unless a sinner learns about his numerous spiritual shortcomings, what other way can he see badly he falls short of the glory of God? How else would he know that he is extremely UNLIKE his Creator!

Unbelievers are moral.

Some are very moral.


Are they spiritual, too?

 

[Jordon]

Understand you are wrong on this. The will is a function of the soul, not the flesh. Our bodies have no capacity to make choices. They work autonomously. You do not choose to make your heart beat or your digestive system to function.

The sin nature (law of sin) that is in the flesh works similar to instinct in an animal. The difference lies in it's leading direction. Where instinct in an animal pushes it to be the animal it is, (ie. the instincts of a dog make it behave like a dog), the law of sin in our flesh push us to be not human (ie. to behave as not made in the image and likeness of God as exemplified in the life of Christ). When that is coupled with our ignorance of God (spiritual death), it becomes a recipe for the death of our humanity.

Christ says if you want to be great in the Kingdom of God you must be the servant of all. The sin nature says if you want to be great you must serve self first, forget the rest.

It is that self-serving instinct that is the sin nature at work in our flesh that ultimately we have no control over that deceives our thinking which is easy to do because we lack the knowledge of the truth of God.

This is why salvation is by grace and freedom comes through Christ who is the Truth. When the ignorance of our thinking is replaced with the truth of God and we live by grace in the power of the Holy Spirit, we are made free to be truly human in all it's perfect God given intent.

You can quote John 1:13 all day long but the reality is you have no idea what it means. The soul is not born corrupted because it is created by God, therefore the will is not corrupted. It is however bound by the sin nature at work in the body and therefore not free at all except for the Lord's intervention which He always does from the moment a soul can think. Then and only then (without grace) would the soul become completely depraved and beyond redemption. That would include one's thinking, emotions and will.

The "will of the flesh" has nothing to do with having the body make choices. It has to do with physical impulse or physical desire. What we would call today in some instances, chemistry, other instances, lust which the mind then follows under the body's impulses. The choice (will) remains in the mind, not the body.

interesting his word says I will give a new heart of flesh ? And you will be saved,

Err I wonder will you seperated the flesh and the soul now ?

And I will quote John 1:13 as much as I like its his written word, it's shame you make out it's not.

Anyhoo happy New year's

 

[Jordon]

An illogical premise presented dogmatically has no refutation for a mind that is closed.

err no your being ignorant to what she meant again, she was saying that his enough to believe, and is enough to prove faith,

So steam on a head defending the ignorance of new comers over a mature Christian like magenta .

When are you going to leave her alone.

 

[Jordon]

Understand that using a poor translation will screw up your logic.

Oh behave yourself your logic needs help

 

[sawdust]

interesting his word says I will give a new heart of flesh ? And you will be saved,

Err I wonder will you seperated the flesh and the soul now ?

And I will quote John 1:13 as much as I like its his written word, it's shame you make out it's not.

Anyhoo happy New year's

More misunderstanding on your part. I wonder if you think you will get heart transplant surgery? Maybe you could ask for a new liver while you're at it.

Happy New Year

 

[sawdust]

Understand that using a poor translation will screw up your logic.

I highly doubt it is the fault of a poor translation.

 

[Rufus]

Understand you are wrong on this. The will is a function of the soul, not the flesh. Our bodies have no capacity to make choices. They work autonomously. You do not choose to make your heart beat or your digestive system to function.

The sin nature (law of sin) that is in the flesh works similar to instinct in an animal. The difference lies in it's leading direction. Where instinct in an animal pushes it to be the animal it is, (ie. the instincts of a dog make it behave like a dog), the law of sin in our flesh push us to be not human (ie. to behave as not made in the image and likeness of God as exemplified in the life of Christ). When that is coupled with our ignorance of God (spiritual death), it becomes a recipe for the death of our humanity.

Christ says if you want to be great in the Kingdom of God you must be the servant of all. The sin nature says if you want to be great you must serve self first, forget the rest.

It is that self-serving instinct that is the sin nature at work in our flesh that ultimately we have no control over that deceives our thinking which is easy to do because we lack the knowledge of the truth of God.

This is why salvation is by grace and freedom comes through Christ who is the Truth. When the ignorance of our thinking is replaced with the truth of God and we live by grace in the power of the Holy Spirit, we are made free to be truly human in all it's perfect God given intent.

You can quote John 1:13 all day long but the reality is you have no idea what it means. The soul is not born corrupted because it is created by God, therefore the will is not corrupted. It is however bound by the sin nature at work in the body and therefore not free at all except for the Lord's intervention which He always does from the moment a soul can think. Then and only then (without grace) would the soul become completely depraved and beyond redemption. That would include one's thinking, emotions and will.

The "will of the flesh" has nothing to do with having the body make choices. It has to do with physical impulse or physical desire. What we would call today in some instances, chemistry, other instances, lust which the mind then follows under the body's impulses. The choice (will) remains in the mind, not the body.

If that were the case, why didn't Paul say that there is no good thing in my soul, instead of my flesh?

 

[Rufus]

Unbelievers are moral.

Some are very moral.


Are they spiritual, too?

Of course, humans are spiritual beings -- DEAD as a door nails spiritual beings.

 

[cv5]

We can’t possibly understand the complexity of His creation more less the complexity of Him which is why yes we have no choice but to trust Him.

Having said that, we also can’t understand the complexity of His will or even our own. Debating on whether we have free will or not almost looks like a couple 3 year olds debating on whether wave-particle duality exists or not. They can’t possibly understand it so what’s the point. Most debates would go by quicker if both sides just stated “this is what I don’t know but what I believe”.

fun fact: A recent study actually showed that in online debates approximately 70% of the people come away with a harder stance in what they believed than they had before the debate.

Wave particle duality does not exist. Exceedingly easy to prove. Einstein's relativity model is hilariously contrived garbage.

Likewise the fact of objective free will enshrined in Scripture. It's everywhere from Genesis 3 onward. Endlessly and in vast copious volume.

Adam made wrong choices while he was yet unfallen and perfectly holy. So did the Woman.
Subsequently, Adam made right choices after the fall had taken place. So did the Woman.

In other words,
UNFALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make bad/wrong decisions.
Decisions that led to their "death" aka separation from God.

FALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make good/right decisions.
Decisions that led to "life" aka "salvation" aka "reconciliation" aka "renewed fellowship" with God.

Now you do Cain and Abel and the parable of the two sons and forgiving Father.

 

[cv5]

Then don’t read them. Use your free will to hit the ignore button.

Just to let you know, there are literally MILLIONS upon millions of eyewitnesses to the various Salvific sagas in the Bible.

Without that, I would have packed my bags long ago.

[Heb 12:1 KJV] 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

 

[Genez]

Oh behave yourself your logic needs help

What does "will of the flesh" mean?
Means - Lust and Impulses.
The flesh does no thinking.

It would be your soul that must decide to follow the impulse.
Impulse... In that sense?
Could be used figuratively to mean "will."
But the flesh has no will.

Ever read an account of a near-death experience where the soul of a person is floating above its dead body
and observing it?
And, the body suddenly begins shouting, and demanding that the soul get back in?
The flesh has no will to do that.
The Flesh signals lust and impulses that are conveyed to the soul, who must make a decision of what to do.

That would be like saying feelings of hunger is the flesh willing you to eat.

 

[Jordon]

More misunderstanding on your part. I wonder if you think you will get heart transplant surgery? Maybe you could ask for a new liver while you're at it.

Happy New Year

In biblical terms a heart transplant is a sudden change of heart, where by the next day they may even start watering there house plants with absolute conviction.

 

[Genez]

Of course, humans are spiritual beings -- DEAD as a door nails spiritual beings.

Do you believe that unbelievers are spiritual beings?

 

[Jordon]

What does "will of the flesh" mean?
Means - Lust and Impulses.
The flesh does no thinking.

It would be your soul that must decide to follow the impulse.
Impulse... In that sense?
Could be used figuratively to mean "will."
But the flesh has no will.

Ever read an account of a near-death experience where the soul of a person is floating above its dead body
and observing it?
And, the body suddenly begins shouting, and demanding that the soul get back in?
The flesh has no will to do that.
The Flesh signals lust and impulses that are conveyed to the soul, who must make decision of what to do.

That would be like saying feelings of hunger is the flesh willing you to eat.

having a dream where your floating is probably down to watching fairy tails , you make no sense here.

The flesh has will and it is written in his word. So stop corrupting it.

 

[sawdust]

In biblical terms a heart transplant is a sudden change of heart, where by the next day they may even start watering there house plants with absolute conviction.

Which goes to show that the will is not in the body. What makes you think the stony hearted people are not watering with absolute conviction? Depends of what one is convicted.

Conviction means nothing if it is not convicted of the truth. Just wood, hay and stubble otherwise.

Everyone in this thread is full of conviction. I wonder who will stand the fiery test?

 

[sawdust]

having a dream where your floating is probably down to watching fairy tails , you make no sense here.

The flesh has will and it is written in his word. So stop corrupting it.

Why don't you start understanding it properly? It has been explained to you in quite a lot of detail.

I bet you could not explain to us with the same depth how your body is making all your decisions apart from your mind.

 

[Genez]

having a dream where your floating is probably down to watching fairy tails , you make no sense here.

The flesh has will and it is written in his word. So stop corrupting it.

Exegesis requires determining the meaning a word held at the time of writing as essential.

Example?

Here you go. Philippians 3:19.

Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, ​

with minds set on earthly things.​

Do you know how the term "belly" was being also used in those days?
How can you make your belly to be your god?

They used the term "belly" to describe what we today refer to as the emotions.
Likewise, the will of the flesh had to do with impulses coming from the fallen nature.

Those who make their belly their god?
Are making their emotions their god.
They are led how they feel about a matter...

And, God calls them what? ..." Enemies of the cross of Christ.'

For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again, even with tears, ​

many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.​

When it is the emotions that drive the opinions of believers?
They are being enemies of the cross of Christ.

Emotions will see people living by objective truth as being a "meany."
Thus... making himself look silly if he is a grown man who is expressing himself that way.

The Lord will sort it all out in the right time and place....

 

[Genez]

Which goes to show that the will is not in the body. What makes you think the stony hearted people are not watering with absolute conviction? Depends of what one is convicted.

Conviction means nothing if it is not convicted of the truth. Just wood, hay and stubble otherwise.

Everyone in this thread is full of conviction. I wonder who will stand the fiery test?

Some day!
God is going to take all their wood, hay, and stubble.
And, POP!
Their bubble!

With no, thanks...
For all their trouble.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15​