Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

Gods knows a person heart, and by many accounts of the Bible God works in a persons heart to change there heart, instilling belief before they can choose accordingly the matters of God.

But God changes a person's heart by them "eating" the word. If the word is rejected, there is no change of heart. In order to "eat" the word, one must trust it to be true (ie believe).

I find your thinking to be rather circular but there you go. We can't all agree I guess.

You have a good day too mate.

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 1 had knowledge God existed but chose to disregard that and exchange the truth for a lie.

That wasn't a spiritual knowledge, just a natural knowledge of a Higher being that created the natural order. And with that knowedge it degenerated into idolatry. True Knowledge of God comes from the saving activity of Christ when he gives eternal life Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So true knowledge of the True God could never be found out by natural creation.

Just believing God exist isnt sufficient for salvation, just about every religious cult in the world believes a God exist.

 

[brightfame52]

But God changes a person's heart by them "eating" the word.

that's false. God gives a new change of heart by new birth Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

By nature we have a stony heart towards God and the things of God, and we cant exercise our freewill to change that.

 

[rogerg]

I still see no solution to the problem in those verses. Make me do something while still giving me the choice. Does not compute Will Robinson.

Did you read and understand the verses I posted to you? What do you think they are saying?

 

[Genez]

yep as I said many times and backed up with scripture, the father willed there hearts to believe, they failed the inner fiery enabling test,


the light of the gospel was hidden from them, because the father did this

Leviticus 26:36

Did the Father will for those who oppose TULIP, to oppose it?

 

[sawdust]

They don't believe because it's hidden from them

No, they don't believe which is why it is hidden from them. Their unbelief opens their minds to the deception of Satan which, is why the Gospel remains hidden to them. If they believed God, they would hear the Gospel but they have rejected Him from the outset.

You have a tendency to get things backward.

2Cor.4:3-4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

It's their unbelief that hides the Gospel to them, not that Satan has hidden the Gospel so they can't believe.

Apart from anything else, you would be making Satan more powerful than God in such a scenario unless you think it is God that hides the Gospel which, the verse does not attribute to God's work.

 

[sawdust]

Oh...so God didn't create man to be autonomous? He created and designed them to be dependent upon Him, correct?

Yes to depend upon him of our own free will. Otherwise we are robots or animals with instinct that automatically pushes us in one direction.

Go learn what it means to be created in the image and likeness of God and what it means to be free indeed.

 

[rogerg]

I still see no solution to the problem in those verses. Make me do something while still giving me the choice. Does not compute Will Robinson.

Those verses were about which occurs first: salvation or faith/belief. They clearly tell us that salvation (forgiveness of sins) occurs first with everything else that accompanies salvation, such as faith/belief, as a result of, or after it - they do not immediately relate to the
2 Co 4 discussion, if that's what you're thinking.

 

[sawdust]

You mean like the Lord did with Ishmael?

????

 

[sawdust]

From whom did "they" hear this truth: The trees, rocks, the oceans, the stars, the sun, the moon, the animals?

God showed it to them.

Rom.1:19
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

 

[Jordon]

Did the Father will for those who oppose TULIP, to oppose it?

whatever Trevor

 

[Jordon]

But God changes a person's heart by them "eating" the word. If the word is rejected, there is no change of heart. In order to "eat" the word, one must trust it to be true (ie believe).

I find your thinking to be rather circular but there you go. We can't all agree I guess.

You have a good day too mate.

Ah but they can only digest the word only if God knows they have become wholesome after they eat the word, but to be honest lol, the phrase you can eat my words is something to Aussie women would probably say in cat fight m

 

[sawdust]

That wasn't a spiritual knowledge, just a natural knowledge of a Higher being that created the natural order. And with that knowedge it degenerated into idolatry. True Knowledge of God comes from the saving activity of Christ when he gives eternal life Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So true knowledge of the True God could never be found out by natural creation.

Just believing God exist isnt sufficient for salvation, just about every religious cult in the world believes a God exist.

It makes no difference whether the means of knowing was supernatural or natural, the fact remains they understood God exists and they rejected the truth and exchanged it for a lie.

This is not about salvation. Stop trying to stretch stuff out into something it's not. What God reveals through the natural world is that He is eternal power and above all. That's it and no more. It isn't even Him being personable at this stage but simply out there as the all powerful. It takes a complete idiot imo to face that degree of power and turn your back on it.

Three things a person must believe before they even get to the Gospel, God exists, He is good and He is merciful. The Romans one lot didn't even get to first base before they were declared out.

 

[Genez]

Just because the original audience is Israel doesn't preclude the truth from being universal.

It is universal.
But ... the original audience was THE CONTEXT used to determine it's meaning.

Find people today living in the same kind of context?
Then it will apply.
That is why it is recorded in the Bible to know about.

......

 

[cv5]

I still see no solution to the problem in those verses. Make me do something while still giving me the choice. Does not compute Will Robinson.

Well......the "problem" is not in the verses that much is obvious.
But as for the reader of the Calvinist sort, the problems are never ending.

And the "problem" is easily diagnosed and always the same:
Vainly trying to squeeze Calvinist juice out of every verse, and never succeeding.

 

[sawdust]

that's false. God gives a new change of heart by new birth Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

By nature we have a stony heart towards God and the things of God, and we cant exercise our freewill to change that.

A new heart AND a new spirit. The rebirth is the new spirit. The new heart comes form abiding in God's word.

We only have a stony heart if we keep rejecting the Lord like Israel did to the point they were driven from the Land. You are quoting Ezekiel in those verses, the prophet of the Exile. Context is everything.

 

[cv5]

Did you read and understand the verses I posted to you? What do you think they are saying?

What you think they are saying is the result of hopeless and infantile biblical illiteracy.

 

[Genez]

This is not about salvation. Stop trying to stretch stuff out into something it's not.

In a nutshell.... They do not understand how, and why.

 

[rogerg]

A new heart AND a new spirit. The rebirth is the new spirit. The new heart comes form abiding in God's word.

Wrong, God unilaterally gives the new heart - man is only its recipient.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

 

[Rufus]

Then how are they making choices if it is God making them believe? That's not a choice.

See the accounts of Abimelech and Balaam in the OT and Judas in the NT. Compatibilism at its finest....