You are lost concerning this conversation because we're not even discussing the Natural Man.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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The natural man has to do with it because if one does not have the spirit they cannot accept what is of the spirit so the indwelling of the spirit is the foundation of receiving what is of God
so if I am lost then enlighten me but if I am correct in what I say show me how I am lost
All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. Matthew 11 v 27
The Natural Man doesn't receive the Holy Ghost the spirit within the Natural Man does. The spirit is the one that becomes awakened. The Natural Man will always be dead even if the spirit inside the Natural Man is alive and full of the Holy Ghost.
You cannot be both dead and alive so perhaps we must clarify what the natural man is? Because the natural man does not have a spirit that can recieve the spirit nowhere is that in scripture the natural man is the carnal fleshly man with fleshly desires he is not good in any way nor can he understand the things of the spirit there is no inbetween
All things are possible with God so it is conceivable. When someone is regenerated and saved is really only answerable by God Himself. I have heard stories of individuals being under conviction for long periods of time. I have personally witnessed such as well. And I have witnessed those who simply heard the gospel and believed. No muss, no fuss. There have probably been those throughout history who God came to personally Himself, like Paul. So I don't think we can say there is only 1 way of salvation. But on the whole, I believe God sends messengers and draws sinners when He saves.
No I am saying that the spirit of man does not receive the spirit of God at least I have not seen this in scripture anywhere what I have seen is that the natural man does not perceive the things of the spirit so where you get your reasoning for this I don't know
Neither can he submit to nor obey God, neither can the flesh please God, it serves the law of sin which brings forth death.
So many Scriptures contradicted and denied by the free will crowd.
The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 v 6-8 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2 v 13-14
What confuses me is people saying that the carnal man doesn't receieve the spirit but the spirit in them does? not only does that not make sense to me but I have never seen this in scripture
It is not in Scripture.
It is God who establishes you in Christ. God made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. We have not received the spirit of the world. God sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts. If the Spirit of God lives in you, you are not controlled by the flesh, but by the Spirit. By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit.
The reason asked is because of 2 Tim 1:9-10 which speaks of saved and called as happening in the past [before time began]. Or, is it speaking of Election?
9 who has [saved us] and [called us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but [according to His own purpose and grace] which was [given to us in Christ Jesus before time began], 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
From 2 Timothy 1 verses 8b-9 Join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God. He has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.
1 Corinthians 1 v 20-25 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
Yes but it is never the flesh always the spirit so the idea of Natural Man being Saved isn't Biblical because only the spirit can be Saved.
When we die the flesh decomposes where the spirit lives forever.
Is it your spirit that lives forever or the flesh body? What lives forever is what needs to be Saved.
If we we're not only chosen but also saved and called before time began, then sanctification might occur throughout our life. Then at God's appointed time, we hear and believe His word and place our trust in Christ.
This would certainly (1) support [By Grace] since it occurred before time began. It would (2) eliminate any boasting by man. It would also (3) explain how we were regenerated to new life in Christ and enabled to hear and believe, even though many years could pass before actually being turned to Christ in faith.
Just a thought. . . .