Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Romans 1:20-21

New International Version



20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.


This verse clearly illustrates Gods spirit is everywhere and all hearts are examined

There's nothing in Rom 1 about God examining hearts. That's your own personal presupposition that you read into the passage. Plus Rom 1 has nothing to do with divine revelation but everything to do with Natural Revelation (temporal reality in the world as we all know it).

 

[Jordon]

There's nothing in Rom 1 about God examining hearts. That's your own personal presupposition that you read into the passage. Plus Rom 1 has nothing to do with divine revelation but everything to do with Natural Revelation (temporal reality in the world as we all know it).

says his word was understood

 

[Rufus]

Why did David frequently play the harp to sooth king saul after he had been stripped of his title

Because David was a righteous man. Do you think Saul was a righteous man, whose life was constantly filled envy, jealousy and hate for David? Do you look at Saul as the godly model for Fearing God? Is Saul one of your bible heroes?

 

[Rufus]

says his word was understood

You truly have a reading comp issue, sir. Again, the text says no such thing! The text does say that NATURAL REVELATION was understood (i.e. by things God made!)...AND subsequently categorically rejected! Rom 1 is not about divine revelation.

 

[Jordon]

You truly have a reading comp issue, sir. Again, the text says no such thing! The text does say that NATURAL REVELATION was understood (i.e. by things God made!)...AND subsequently categorically rejected! Rom 1 is not about divine revelation.

What you need to do is read it again and see that those who are spirituality dead need life

 

[Jordon]

You truly have a reading comp issue, sir.

no the words nobody is without excuse means they understood God

 

[Jordon]

Because David was a righteous man. Do you think Saul was a righteous man, whose life was constantly filled envy, jealousy and hate for David? Do you look at Saul as the godly model for Fearing God? Is Saul one of your bible heroes?

surely if a heart is completely hardened you couldn't sooth it

 

[Rufus]

Well... uh.

I believe your mommy and daddy brought you your Christmas gifts, and not Santa.

What has Trump got to do with it?
......

Not very much. Only that God saved his life! Why do you ask such a question: Do you already want to walk back your original answer to multiple choice question?

But if you don't and you stick by your answer "God's Providence", then I have this follow up question: When God proactively and effectually restrains evil in this dark, fallen, depraved word, is the world better or worse off for those gracious and kind acts? Think carefully now before you answer. To help you find the right answer (since there are theological implications), I'll share other passages that speak to God restraint of evil in this world, since you already quoted the passage in 2Thes 2.

Ps 146:9
9 The LORD protects the strangers;
He supports the fatherless and the widow;
But He thwarts the way of the wicked.
NASB

And,

Job 5:12-13
12 "He frustrates the plotting of the shrewd,
So that their hands cannot attain success.
13 "He captures the wise by their own shrewdness
And the advice of the cunning is quickly thwarted.
NASB

Apparently, God has no qualms about sovereignly imposing HIS perfect holy will upon fallen creatures. Or maybe you know of a passage that teaches that the Potter first humbly seeks the permission of His pots before He does any thwarting or frustrating?

 

[Genez]

Not very much. Only that God saved his life! Why do you ask such a question: Do you already want to walk back your original answer to multiple choice question?

But if you don't and you stick by your answer "God's Providence", then I have this follow up question: When God proactively and effectually restrains evil in this dark, fallen, depraved word, is the world better or worse off for those gracious and kind acts? Think carefully now before you answer. To help you find the right answer (since there are theological implications), I'll share other passages that speak to God restraint of evil in this world, since you already quoted the passage in 2Thes 2.

Ps 146:9
9 The LORD protects the strangers;
He supports the fatherless and the widow;
But He thwarts the way of the wicked.
NASB

And,

Job 5:12-13
12 "He frustrates the plotting of the shrewd,
So that their hands cannot attain success.
13 "He captures the wise by their own shrewdness
And the advice of the cunning is quickly thwarted.
NASB

Apparently, God has no qualms about sovereignly imposing HIS perfect holy will upon fallen creatures. Or maybe you know of a passage that teaches that the Potter first humbly seeks the permission of His pots before He does any thwarting or frustrating?

The irony of you alleged, anti-free willers is?

You found something to boast about over others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are a bunch of phonies!

You do anti-works-works!

I knew something smelled rancid.
And, that is why......

 

[Rufus]

no the words nobody is without excuse means they understood God

God himself can only be understood by divine revelation. This is why we have a bible. What was understood were qualities and attributes about God that are revealed to all mankind everywhere by the things God made! What part of this passage can't you understand:

Rom 1:19-20
19 ...since what may be known ABOUT God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
NIV

You see...v. 20 does not say that men understood things about God from what is written.

Also, there's a huge, qualitative difference between knowing some things ABOUT people and actually personally knowing people. Born again believers actually know God since their knowledge of Him is personal and intimate because it has been revealed to them by divine revelation and the indwelling Spirit. The ungodly world has no such knowledge.

 

[Rufus]

The irony of you alleged, anti-free willers is?

You found something to boast about over others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are a bunch of phonies!

You do anti-works-works!

I knew something smelled rancid.
And, that is why......

You're quite right! I boast in the Cross of Christ and the good, perfect, holy sovereign will of God! The "others" (including you) boast in your arrogance, pride, self-will, self-reliance, self sufficiency and most of your your sacred and invioable "freewill".

Thanks for playing, though. I pretty much figured that deep down in that dark abyss heart of yours that you would consider God's restraint of evil in this world to be, in and of itself, an evil act by Him.

Any other FWers here believe that God's proactive restraint of evil is a wicked act by the Creator? Genez, evidently, believes that it's better for this world for evil to go unrestrained -- that the most righteous, honorable and respectful thing God can do for this world is to give everyone their sinful way.

 

[Magenta]

You're quite right! I boast in the Cross of Christ and the good, perfect, holy sovereign will of God! The "others" (including you) boast in your arrogance, pride, self-will, self-reliance, self sufficiency and most of your your sacred and invioable "freewill".

Thanks for playing, though. I pretty much figured that deep down in that dark abyss heart of yours that you would consider God's restraint of evil in this world to be, in and of itself, an evil act by Him.

Any other FWers here believe that God's proactive restraint of evil is a wicked act by the Creator? Genez, evidently, believes that it's better for this world for evil to go unrestrained -- that the most righteous, honorable and respectful thing God can do for this world is to give everyone their sinful way.

That does sound very deist of him, as you mentioned earlier...

 

[Jordon]

God himself can only be understood by divine revelation. This is why we have a bible. What was understood were qualities and attributes about God that are revealed to all mankind everywhere by the things God made! What part of this passage can't you understand:

Rom 1:19-20
19 ...since what may be known ABOUT God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
NIV

You see...v. 20 does not say that men understood things about God from what is written.

Also, there's a huge, qualitative difference between knowing some things ABOUT people and actually personally knowing people. Born again believers actually know God since their knowledge of Him is personal and intimate because it has been revealed to them by divine revelation and the indwelling Spirit. The ungodly world has no such knowledge.

Well How was God was able to get through to your free will of the flesh in your sinful nature, surly you must have understood ?

 

[Genez]

Hello!

To all us alleged, free-willers.

The irony of the alleged, ANTI-free willers, is?

They found something to boast about over others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!​

They are a bunch of phonies!

They are doing anti-works-WORKS!

I knew something smelled rancid coming from the TULIP patch.
And, that is why......

​

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; ​

it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. ​

​

Boasters!

Their own depravity found a way to get around of what is normally thought of as typical overt works, to hide away their need for boasting!

They literally boast over those they have labelled as free willers, with their own version of an anti-work - work!

They use anti-works, as their work!



.......

.......

 

[Genez]

You're quite right! I boast in the Cross of Christ and the good, perfect, holy sovereign will of God! The "others" (including you) boast in your arrogance, pride, self-will, self-reliance, self sufficiency and most of your your sacred and invioable "freewill".

Thanks for playing, though. I pretty much figured that deep down in that dark abyss heart of yours that you would consider God's restraint of evil in this world to be, in and of itself, an evil act by Him.

Any other FWers here believe that God's proactive restraint of evil is a wicked act by the Creator? Genez, evidently, believes that it's better for this world for evil to go unrestrained -- that the most righteous, honorable and respectful thing God can do for this world is to give everyone their sinful way.

B S... all you offer is pride saving damage control.

Satan quotes Scripture.

 

[Rufus]

So Rufus this is How the discussion started.

So if you would care to address my reply to you, that would be good

So, you see Ps 78 as a positive, glowing, flattering testimony of Israel's love and faithfulness to God?

National Israel's relationship was so good with God that he wound up judging and condemning the vast majority of them -- save for the remnant God graciously preserved/kept for Himself.

 

[Jordon]

So, you see Ps 78 as a positive, glowing, flattering testimony of Israel's love and faithfulness to God?

National Israel's relationship was so good with God that he wound up judging and condemning the vast majority of them -- save for the remnant God graciously preserved/kept for Himself.

I told you how I saw it, try again

 

[Rufus]

B S... all you offer is pride saving damage control.

Satan quotes Scripture.

Yes...your father does quote scripture which he hates as much as you apparently do.

But since you think its infinitely better for God to assume a deistic role in his universe and just permit every sinner to exercise his depraved "freewill" in this world, how would you ever fit into the eternal New Order in which all the "robotic" saints will be "programmed" to not sin any longer? It seems to me you'd be much more spiritually comfortable in hell wherein you'd be able to stroke your ego and "freewill" forever and ever.

 

[Rufus]

I told you how I saw it, try again

It's doubtful that your attention span would allow you to truly absorb the contexts of that long Psalm.

 

[Rufus]

What you need to do is read it again and see that those who are spirituality dead need life

Rom 1 is not about spiritual needs. It's about the spiritual response from the ungodly world to God's Natural Revelation -- i.e. by the thinga God created!