Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Blain]

Can God choose not to know the outcome of every event?

He doesn't need to because he sees every instance every outcome every situation and his understanding of eternity is far beyond ours

He doesn't understand time or the out come of things like we do we will never be able to comprehend his way of doing things. think of this say that there is a person before God and God is showing them every outcome for every choice they ever made or didn't make thousands of different outcomes would be shown if not millions because every choice we do or don't make has a different outcome and then that outcome is also based on the choices others made as well it is like a ripple effect

God sees and knows all period and we never know or understand the small choices we make or don't make and how far they go. this is why we must consider how eternity works because with our human understanding we see only what our limited view can but he sees and knows all

 

[Blain]

Passage please? thanks

Several scriptures say that God knew you before you were formed in the womb, including Jeremiah 1:5 ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you") and Psalm 139:13 ("For you formed my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb"). Other verses that support this idea include Isaiah 49:1, Psalm 22:9-10, and Job 10:11,

 

[Magenta]

Psalm 147 verse 5, Isaiah 40 verse 28b, Jeremiah 32 verse 17b, Isaiah 55 verse 9, Job 36 verse 5 ~ Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding has no limit. Psalm 147 verse 5 His understanding is beyond searching out. Isaiah 40 verse 28b Nothing is too difficult for You! Jeremiah 32 verse 17b For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55 verse 9 His understanding is beyond searching out. Isaiah 40 verse 28b He is mighty in strength of understanding. Job 36 verse 5

 

[Jordon]

Passage please? thanks

you've had them already and I think you've stated your intention now well and truly

Thanks for clarifying

 

[NightTwister]

Thats a fallacie of assumption. I have never called anyone in here a calvinist. Go back as far as you want. Why do you bear false witness against me by claiming I do?

I didn't say you did. Your friend did.

 

[Jordon]

Passage please? thanks

One of the core beliefs of Christianity is the living hope that God knows your whole life past present and future based on many scriptures, here just one. It's no wonder you write the things you do

There's plenty more but it's upto you where you go from here

Psalm 139:1-4

Psalm 139
1 You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.


Before a word is spoken he already knows that what your going to say .

Going back further he knows from a afar

Means he forknew you to and your whole life.

Paul is another key verse, God knew the day he would be filled with the holy spirit from his mother's womb. From afar

If you take away God knowing your whole life, you take a way a living hope of Christianity.

I hope this really strikes home to you.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I believe we are very close in what we are both saying, though we may be approaching the order of the problem from slightly different angles.

I fully agree that the root issue in 1 Corinthians 3 was that the Corinthians took their eyes off Christ, who is the only true foundation, and placed their attention on men. Paul makes that clear in 1 Corinthians 1, and later reminds them that no other foundation can be laid except Jesus Christ. Once they shifted their focus away from the Lord and toward their human leaders, their spiritual condition began to show itself.

Where I am adding emphasis is that Paul does not leave this problem in a general category. In chapter 3, he identifies the actual sins that grew out of taking their eyes off Christ. When they began to follow men instead of the Lord, their carnality did not remain hidden. It manifested itself in three specific sins that Paul names directly: envying, strife, and divisions. These were the outward fruits of a heart no longer centered on Christ.

This is why I connect this issue to Galatians 5. Paul lists strife and envyings as works of the flesh that will keep a person from inheriting the Kingdom of God unless they repent. That is a serious warning. It shows that the issue in Corinth was not simply immaturity or a matter of personal preference. Their loss of focus on Christ had opened the door for spiritually dangerous sins to take root in the church.

So yes, the foundational issue was that they turned their attention from Christ to men. I agree with you completely. But Paul also shows how that shift expressed itself in their conduct. Their misplaced loyalty produced envy, strife, and divisions. These sins were the evidence of their carnality, and Paul directly rebukes them for these very things.

Your point about people looking to the preacher instead of the Lord is exactly right. I am simply noting that Paul explains what happens when believers forget their foundation. Once Christ is no longer the center, the flesh steps in and produces these specific sins. That is why the mention of envying, strife, and divisions is so important. These were not harmless details. They were the direct result of forgetting Christ and placing men in His place.

I appreciate your desire to examine your walk with the Lord daily. That is something every believer should practice. And I agree completely that God never leaves us. It is our hearts that drift from Him when we stop keeping our eyes on Christ.

I hope this helps clarify the point I am making.

May the Lord Jesus bless you greatly today.

Sincerely,

A mere Bible Highlighter..

2 Cor 3 tells us that when our hearts are turned to the Lord Jesus Christ, a veil is lifted in our reading of Scripture which, in turn, transforms us. Our lives begin to reflect Him.

2 Corinthians 3:12-18

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

.

 

[Jackson129]

I didn't say you did. Your friend did.

Which friend? The one who started this conversation? Because this conversation is about logical fallacies. Or are you again assuming im friends with the actual people who have called people calvinist?

 

[BillyBob]

Some here fail to see the differences.

God is in control of all creation.
But, that does not mean he is personally controlling all things in creation.

Matt 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.
There are some things mentioned in Scripture that I am unable to fully grasp. One of them is how everything that happens is under God's control.
Yet, Scripture seems to say that nothing happens unless it is the will of the Father.
Perhaps someone else has the answer. But I think it would only be speculation on their part.

 

[Blain]

Matt 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.
There are some things mentioned in Scripture that I am unable to fully grasp. One of them is how everything that happens is under God's control.
Yet, Scripture seems to say that nothing happens unless it is the will of the Father.
Perhaps someone else has the answer. But I think it would only be speculation on their part.

So our suffering then is it also a part of the fathers will?

 

[John146]

Several scriptures say that God knew you before you were formed in the womb, including Jeremiah 1:5 ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you") and Psalm 139:13 ("For you formed my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb"). Other verses that support this idea include Isaiah 49:1, Psalm 22:9-10, and Job 10:11,

Correct, before you were formed in the womb. He was in the womb upon conception but was not formed yet. God knit us together in the womb. He knew us before he knit and formed us together. But nowhere does it say that he knew us before we were in the womb. Big difference.

 

[BillyBob]

So our suffering then is it also a part of the fathers will?

Even though I am unable to understand it, I would have to say YES it is. His thoughts are too high for us to fully understand.

 

[John146]

One of the core beliefs of Christianity is the living hope that God knows your whole life past present and future based on many scriptures, here just one. It's no wonder you write the things you do

There's plenty more but it's upto you where you go from here

Psalm 139:1-4

Psalm 139
1 You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.


Before a word is spoken he already knows that what your going to say .

Going back further he knows from a afar

Means he forknew you to and your whole life.

Paul is another key verse, God knew the day he would be filled with the holy spirit from his mother's womb. From afar

If you take away God knowing your whole life, you take a way a living hope of Christianity.

I hope this really strikes home to you.

My comments in bold...

One of the core beliefs of Christianity is the living hope that God knows your whole life past present and future based on many scriptures, here just one. It's no wonder you write the things you do I prefer to agree with scripture and what it actually states, not what Christian believes.

There's plenty more but it's upto you where you go from here See my earlier post

Psalm 139:1-4

Psalm 139
1 You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.


Before a word is spoken he already knows that what your going to say . The moment you think a thought, God knows it, before it is even spoken.

Going back further he knows from a afar

Means he forknew you to and your whole life. Your private interpretation

Paul is another key verse, God knew the day he would be filled with the holy spirit from his mother's womb. From afar

If you take away God knowing your whole life, you take a way a living hope of Christianity. Nope, just your opinions

I hope this really strikes home to you.

 

[Jackson129]

Even though I am unable to understand it, I would have to say YES it is. His thoughts are too high for us to fully understand.

Is it called permissive will? Obviously God didnt want or make us fling chlorine gas at each other in 1917. He did however know we were going to and he did let us do it.

 

[Blain]

Correct, before you were formed in the womb. He was in the womb upon conception but was not formed yet. God knit us together in the womb. He knew us before he knit and formed us together. But nowhere does it say that he knew us before we were in the womb. Big difference.

Fair point but even if he only knew us when he formed us in the womb it would imply that he had our existance in his mind when creating us so think of it like this youcan cr4eate art and in the instance of creating art you know what your creating but you had to have an idea of what you were creating before hand to actually create it

I mean I cannot draw a picture without first having an understanding of what I am going to draw

 

[Magenta]

Correct, before you were formed in the womb. He was in the womb upon conception but was not formed yet. God knit us together in the womb. He knew us before he knit and formed us together. But nowhere does it say that he knew us before we were in the womb. Big difference.

It literally says, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." That is God speaking.

 

[Blain]

Even though I am unable to understand it, I would have to say YES it is. His thoughts are too high for us to fully understand.

The best picture for that reasoning would be the story of job but not to mention Jesus suffered greatly the apostles suffered greatly the church as a whole suffered greatly and in fact suffering seems to go hand in hand with following Christ

 

[Cameron143]

Matt 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.
There are some things mentioned in Scripture that I am unable to fully grasp. One of them is how everything that happens is under God's control.
Yet, Scripture seems to say that nothing happens unless it is the will of the Father.
Perhaps someone else has the answer. But I think it would only be speculation on their part.

It's worth pursuing the extent to which God is involved in the affairs of men.

1. In creating an individual...what is the extent of God's knowledge of the individual?
2. In creating the boundaries of an individual...what is the extent of God's knowledge of the individual?
3. In upholding all things by the word of His power, what is the extent of God's knowledge?

 

[Genez]

Matt 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.
There are some things mentioned in Scripture that I am unable to fully grasp. One of them is how everything that happens is under God's control.
Yet, Scripture seems to say that nothing happens unless it is the will of the Father.
Perhaps someone else has the answer. But I think it would only be speculation on their part.

You are confusing how God controls who is to live, and who is to die.
With, who is to get nasty and say bad things in a forum because he wanted to.

God does not make the nasty believer to be nasty. But, He controls that he would
be present in the forum.

See the difference?

 

[Jordon]

My comments in bold...

One of the core beliefs of Christianity is the living hope that God knows your whole life past present and future based on many scriptures, here just one. It's no wonder you write the things you do I prefer to agree with scripture and what it actually states, not what Christian believes.

There's plenty more but it's upto you where you go from here See my earlier post

Psalm 139:1-4

Psalm 139
1 You have searched me, Lord,
and you know me.
2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
4 Before a word is on my tongue
you, Lord, know it completely.


Before a word is spoken he already knows that what your going to say . The moment you think a thought, God knows it, before it is even spoken.

Going back further he knows from a afar

Means he forknew you to and your whole life. Your private interpretation

Paul is another key verse, God knew the day he would be filled with the holy spirit from his mother's womb. From afar

If you take away God knowing your whole life, you take a way a living hope of Christianity. Nope, just your opinions

I hope this really strikes home to you.

Out of all the Christians i know personally, your the only one doesn't believe this.

I won't waste anymore time with you.

Bye