Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Bible_Highlighter]

Roda,
Welcome to CC and to the topic of free-will.
It seems to be a topic that divides Christians right down the middle. I personally believe that man has totally lost his ability to turn to Christ until such time as he has been enabled to do so. But others believe that man can, and in fact does, turn to God by choosing to do so [no help needed, thank you!]
Join the topic if you wish, but please know that those who do not agree with you will argue.
As they say here in Texas, “Them's fighten words partner”!

Kind of you to keep me to speed, thank you

@Roda

Welcome to ChristianChat.
May the Lord Jesus bless you beyond all imagining.
May you also continually ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in your study of Scripture here, as well.

In any event, I want to clarify that BillyBob is only giving you the half truth in this discussion involving all the players.
Arminians believe that man does not inherently have the ability to choose God without His drawing, conviction, and enlightenment.

Here is a list of the different positions involved:

#1. Calvinism (Total Depravity meaning Total Inability, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints).​

​

#2. Arminianism (Believes that God enables the free will at the right time in a person's life to make a choice toward Him. Without this divine enlightenment, enabling, and drawing, a person does not have the ability or full capacity to choose God of his own free will choice). This view appeals to verses such as John 12:32, John 1:9, and Titus 2:11.​

​

#3. Pelagianism (Denies that God has to intervene at all for man to see spiritually or be able to understand the gospel message and make a genuine choice concerning Christ).​

I believe in free will and yet I also believe that man does not have the ability to choose God on his own without God’s drawing, conviction of sin, and the opening of a person’s heart (John 6:44, Acts 16:14). Yet I believe Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). This means there will be a time in a person's life where they will not be blinded by Satan and in a sinful state without understanding, where they do not seek after God (Romans 3:10–11, 2 Corinthians 4:4).

I lean heavily toward Arminianism, yet I reject the label they use called “Total Depravity,” which I believe should be called “Partial Depravity,” because God intervenes at some point in a person’s life. Arminians believe in a concept called “Prevenient Grace.” Although I do not prefer the term “Prevenient Grace,” since I see grace as salvation when it is in the context of God and man, I prefer the term “Divine Enablement or Enlightenment,” which falls under God’s drawing of man at the right moment in a person’s life (John 6:44, John 12:32, Titus 2:11).

So when Jesus says, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29 KJV), He is not saying that our believing is a work. That would contradict Ephesians 2:8–9. “The work of God” refers to God’s work, not our own. It is God who grants the capacity and the opportunity to believe.

Regular Calvinists in general (not all of the ones here) see the order like this:

1. Election (God’s grace)
2. Regeneration meaning being born again, which they see as the start of salvation
3. Faith (Belief in the gospel)
4. Full salvation

Hyper Calvinists see the order like this:

1. Election (God’s grace)
2. Regeneration meaning being born again, which they see as full salvation itself
3. Faith (Belief in the gospel), which they treat as merely the fruit of salvation

Arminians see the order like this:

1. Election, which in this view is based on God’s foreknowledge of man’s positive free will choice toward Him (1 Peter 1:1–2). In the context, the word “elect” also has a semantic range that can include things God desires for us to do in this life, such as holy living (1 Thessalonians 4:7).
2. Prevenient Grace, which I prefer to call “Divine Enlightenment or Enablement.” This includes God temporarily freeing a person from the blindness of Satan. God draws, God convicts, and God opens the heart and eyes to enable a free will choice concerning Him and the gospel message of salvation (John 12:32, John 1:9, Titus 2:11, Acts 16:14).
3. Faith (Belief in the gospel)
4. Regeneration meaning being born again or salvation (God’s grace) (Acts 3:19, John 3:3–7)

Pelagians see the order like this:

1. Election, which they define as God’s foreknowledge of man’s positive free will choice toward Him (1 Peter 1:1–2). As noted before, “elect” can also include God’s calling for holy living.
2. Faith (Belief in the gospel)
3. Regeneration meaning being born again or salvation (God’s grace)

The crux of the main moral problem in Calvinism is this: If God forces some people to be saved based on no conditions within them, and He forces others to not be saved (also based on no conditions within them), then God is creating the majority of mankind for the specific purpose of being tortured in flames for all eternity as their only fate or destiny, with man having no say-so in the matter. God could have saved them, but He simply chose for them to burn, scream, and be tortured forever as a part of the good counsel of His will. And if that is true, then statements in the Bible like ‘God is love’ (1 John 4:8) or ‘God is good’ (Psalm 34:8) become hollow and empty because such a portrayal ultimately turns God into a monster.



.....

 

[Jordon]

lol he seems to go from one extreme to next

 

[Kroogz]

I may have missed this one in my prior post but what I said that true faith/belief must originate from/with God not man applies.
The "will be" or "shalt be" (KJV), is in the future, not present, tense. Makes a big difference to its meaning.

"believe" is in the Aorist Imperative Active voice. A command that is given to the jailer. The JAILER must believe.

4100 [e]Πίστευσον
PisteusonBelieveV-AMA-2S

Of course "shall be saved" Is future tense.......The Moment(aorist of "believe") the Jailer believes he will be saved. He may believe in a few minutes or a few days or a few years.

Whoever believes in the Lord Jesus......their future holds His salvation.

 

[rogerg]

"believe" is in the Aorist Imperative Active voice. A command that is given to the jailer. The JAILER must believe.

4100 [e]Πίστευσον
PisteusonBelieveV-AMA-2S

Of course "shall be saved" Is future tense.......The Moment(aorist of "believe") the Jailer believes he will be saved. He may believe in a few minutes or a few days or a few years.

Whoever believes in the Lord Jesus......their future holds His salvation.

That would contradict your own belief. Don't you believe the instant one believes they become saved? Instead, the "shall be saved" (future tense) pertains to being saved from the wrath of God on Judgement Day. The "shall be saved" in the below, being in the same future tense:

[Rom 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[Kroogz]

I may have missed this one in my prior post but what I said that true faith/belief must originate from/with God not man applies.
The "will be" or "shalt be" (KJV), is in the future, not present, tense. Makes a big difference to its meaning.

They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

Paul was telling the jailer that this teaching is non discriminatory. This teaching goes for the jailer and ALL in his household.

 

[Magenta]

In any event, I want to clarify that BillyBob is only giving you the half truth in this discussion involving all the players.

Just as you are only giving a partial truth, and continually deliberately misrepresent yourself and others
in your posts, pretending you know what others believe, when you do not, and insisting you only want
respectful and kind dialogue, when your actions repeatedly and loudly proclaim otherwise. The
issue in this topic's discussion is whether or not the flesh can do what Scripture says it cannot.
You are among those who say it can, and make up something not in Scripture to uphold your
erroneous view, calling it temporary enablement.

 

[Kroogz]

That would contradict your own belief. Don't you believe the instant one believes they become saved? Instead, the "shall be saved" (future tense) pertains to being saved from the wrath of God on Judgement Day. The "shall be saved" in the below, being in the same future tense:

[Rom 5:9 KJV] 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Kroogz said:
"believe" is in the Aorist Imperative Active voice. A command that is given to the jailer. The JAILER must believe.

4100 [e]Πίστευσον
PisteusonBelieveV-AMA-2S

Of course "shall be saved" Is future tense.......The Moment(aorist of "believe") the Jailer believes he will be saved. He may believe in a few minutes or a few days or a few years.

Whoever believes in the Lord Jesus......their future holds His salvation.

 

[Roda]

@Roda

Welcome to ChristianChat.
May the Lord Jesus bless you beyond all imagining.
May you also continually ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in your study of Scripture here, as well.

In any event, I want to clarify that BillyBob is only giving you the half truth in this discussion involving all the players.
Arminians believe that man does not inherently have the ability to choose God without His drawing, conviction, and enlightenment.

Here is a list of the different positions involved:

#1. Calvinism (Total Depravity meaning Total Inability, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints).​

​

#2. Arminianism (Believes that God enables the free will at the right time in a person's life to make a choice toward Him. Without this divine enlightenment, enabling, and drawing, a person does not have the ability or full capacity to choose God of his own free will choice). This view appeals to verses such as John 12:32, John 1:9, and Titus 2:11.​

​

#3. Pelagianism (Denies that God has to intervene at all for man to see spiritually or be able to understand the gospel message and make a genuine choice concerning Christ).​

I believe in free will and yet I also believe that man does not have the ability to choose God on his own without God’s drawing, conviction of sin, and the opening of a person’s heart (John 6:44, Acts 16:14). Yet I believe Christ draws all men unto Himself (John 12:32). This means there will be a time in a person's life where they will not be blinded by Satan and in a sinful state without understanding, where they do not seek after God (Romans 3:10–11, 2 Corinthians 4:4).

I lean heavily toward Arminianism, yet I reject the label they use called “Total Depravity,” which I believe should be called “Partial Depravity,” because God intervenes at some point in a person’s life. Arminians believe in a concept called “Prevenient Grace.” Although I do not prefer the term “Prevenient Grace,” since I see grace as salvation when it is in the context of God and man, I prefer the term “Divine Enablement or Enlightenment,” which falls under God’s drawing of man at the right moment in a person’s life (John 6:44, John 12:32, Titus 2:11).

So when Jesus says, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29 KJV), He is not saying that our believing is a work. That would contradict Ephesians 2:8–9. “The work of God” refers to God’s work, not our own. It is God who grants the capacity and the opportunity to believe.

Regular Calvinists in general (not all of the ones here) see the order like this:

1. Election (God’s grace)
2. Regeneration meaning being born again, which they see as the start of salvation
3. Faith (Belief in the gospel)
4. Full salvation

Hyper Calvinists see the order like this:

1. Election (God’s grace)
2. Regeneration meaning being born again, which they see as full salvation itself
3. Faith (Belief in the gospel), which they treat as merely the fruit of salvation

Arminians see the order like this:

1. Election, which in this view is based on God’s foreknowledge of man’s positive free will choice toward Him (1 Peter 1:1–2). In the context, the word “elect” also has a semantic range that can include things God desires for us to do in this life, such as holy living (1 Thessalonians 4:7).
2. Prevenient Grace, which I prefer to call “Divine Enlightenment or Enablement.” This includes God temporarily freeing a person from the blindness of Satan. God draws, God convicts, and God opens the heart and eyes to enable a free will choice concerning Him and the gospel message of salvation (John 12:32, John 1:9, Titus 2:11, Acts 16:14).
3. Faith (Belief in the gospel)
4. Regeneration meaning being born again or salvation (God’s grace) (Acts 3:19, John 3:3–7)

Pelagians see the order like this:

1. Election, which they define as God’s foreknowledge of man’s positive free will choice toward Him (1 Peter 1:1–2). As noted before, “elect” can also include God’s calling for holy living.
2. Faith (Belief in the gospel)
3. Regeneration meaning being born again or salvation (God’s grace)

The crux of the main moral problem in Calvinism is this: If God forces some people to be saved based on no conditions within them, and He forces others to not be saved (also based on no conditions within them), then God is creating the majority of mankind for the specific purpose of being tortured in flames for all eternity as their only fate or destiny, with man having no say-so in the matter. God could have saved them, but He simply chose for them to burn, scream, and be tortured forever as a part of the good counsel of His will. And if that is true, then statements in the Bible like ‘God is love’ (1 John 4:8) or ‘God is good’ (Psalm 34:8) become hollow and empty because such a portrayal ultimately turns God into a monster.



.....

Oh thank you so much. May the Holy Spirit be your Guide as well!
I'm leaning more on the Arminian side as well, not entirely though. Never heard of Pelaginism but I met some Calvinists in university some years ago and I thought we had an entirely different bible. If there is any Calvinist here kind enough to educate me on the meaning of total depravity, please do. Using scripture IN CONTEXT.

 

[Jordon]

You are still a baby!

There is so much to know, and you do not know what it is.
You think almost everybody is the same as you are.
That allows you to feel free to think you have not much to learn.

Keep looking around you at others who are in the same boat as you are,
and it will make you think you are perfectly fine.

That is why Paul wrote the following to others doing as you are now doing.

​

I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. ​

And even now you are not yet ready, 1 Corinthians 3:2​

You really don't know.
But you keep chumming up to those here who are in the same state as you are, to verify that you are doing fine.

How much good it does to tell you the truth? I can't say.
But, I tell you the truth just the same..

grace and peace .......

I says I wouldn't want you to walk around with hobble for the rest of life meaning, meaning a chip on your shoulder.

It's obvious you have one. And I wouldn't want you stay like the way you are, but the truth is your going to m, cuz no amount of taking with you is making any difference,

it like you read scripture and just claim it for yourself.

It's called a glory grabber sir.

And your the grabber.

Feeding your crew of glory grabbers,

All walking round in this imaginary Calvinism Arminian battle going round in your head.


Your all bonkers

 

[rogerg]

Kroogz said:
"believe" is in the Aorist Imperative Active voice. A command that is given to the jailer. The JAILER must believe.

4100 [e]Πίστευσον
PisteusonBelieveV-AMA-2S

Of course "shall be saved" Is future tense.......The Moment(aorist of "believe") the Jailer believes he will be saved. He may believe in a few minutes or a few days or a few years.

Whoever believes in the Lord Jesus......their future holds His salvation.

Believe is Aorist; the "shall be saved", in the future. Meaning that you can't use "believe" in the verse you chose, as the trigger for becoming saved as stated by that verse. According to you, belief triggers salvation, doesn't it, so it should be immediate, not future.
Meaning, that the verses is conveying something different than what you're saying.

 

[rogerg]

They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Equal privilege and equal opportunity for ALL.

Paul was telling the jailer that this teaching is non discriminatory. This teaching goes for the jailer and ALL in his household.

Yes, all who truly believe shall be (future) saved from God's wrath. But the question is: who truly believes, and why?

 

[BillyBob]

Please enlighten me on your perspective. How is that so?

God's plan of salvation, spoken of in the Scriptures, originates in the grace of God from eternity-before the creation of this world.

Paul says in Ephesians 1:4 that God’s elect were chosen ‘in Him before the foundation of the world’. We can know God only because He has graciously planned from eternity past to reveal Himself to His people in time. Therefore, We can know God only by the Grace of God.

The very fact that we know Him is given to us as a gift, by the hearing of His word and the work of the Holy Spirit which draws us to Christ as our Savior. That's what grace is, a gift from God which is given freely, not earned in any way.

This must be kept in mind as you look at Scripture to determine its meaning. Then when you come across a passage such as “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 – you must ask yourself what does the word world actually mean, who is it that will believe?

If you have trouble understanding a verse, continue reading. You may come across “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; FOR they are Thine. And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them” (Jn.17:9,10).
Then you must choose which to believe, does world actually mean all men on earth or men chosen from all nations?

Many will say that this is not fair. However, Scripture tells us “But now, O Lord, You are our Father; We are the clay, and You our potter; And all we are the work of Your hand”. Isa 64:8

 

[Genez]

they've been teaching that longer than you've been around

I am sure it has. But, is that is what being taught today in Calvinistic churches?
The one I attended (only one time) was much like what Magenta and Rufus keep recycling.

 

[Genez]

My mouth is above my neck.


............. Not in my pants.

 

[Roda]

Then when you come across a passage such as “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 – you must ask yourself what does the word world actually mean, who is it that will believe?

Thank you for explaining. But "whoever" means just that, "whoever". God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, else why would He desire if He knew very well that the opportunity wasn't open to all?

 

[Genez]

Which is effective only if the victim doesn't truly seek, doesn't ask, and doesn't much care. Manifestly evident when they turn up their nose at high grade Bible exigetical treatments offered on a silver platter.

Instead......fake religious zealotry ego tripping, chanting Bible tweet mantras, and interpreting every passage wrongly.

That's their job...

We could possibly say, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

But, in this case?

They know not who they are.

......

 

[Genez]

I says I wouldn't want you to walk around with hobble for the rest of life meaning, meaning a chip on your shoulder.

It's obvious you have one. And I wouldn't want you stay like the way you are, but the truth is your going to m, cuz no amount of taking with you is making any difference,

it like you read scripture and just claim it for yourself.

It's called a glory grabber sir.

And your the grabber.

Feeding your crew of glory grabbers,

All walking round in this imaginary Calvinism Arminian battle going round in your head.


Your all bonkers

You don't understand what is going on.

 

[Solitude]

My mouth is above my neck.


............. Not in my pants.

So you are exposing yourself.

 

[Kroogz]

Believe is Aorist; the "shall be saved", in the future. Meaning that you can't use "believe" in the verse you chose, as the trigger for becoming saved as stated by that verse. According to you, belief triggers salvation, doesn't it, so it should be immediate, not future.

Believe in the Lord Jesus And you shall be saved.......

The moment(INSTANT) the jailer believes he will be saved. So what do you suggest is the "trigger" in this verse?

What must I do to be saved?

Calvie 16:31...... Eat drink and be merry and thou might be saved.........

Meaning, that the verses is conveying something different than what you're saying.

Ok. So the jailer, who is a natural man and can know nothing of God, is bringing out a "deep spiritual truth" that most believers don't understand?

 

[Genez]

So you are exposing yourself.

I suggest that you stick to your secular advice videos...