Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jordon]

Including all heretics, sinners, etc. - basically unsaved ppl

You can include who you want

I said this is what happens to the free will of the flesh

You can freely choose to put which ever people you want in there.

After all your Mr all mighty

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

More of your dishonesty. You constantly diverted from Scripture to speak of other things to condemn me and you know it but refuse to admit it. You never mention this fact, just act like it was me making personal remarks to you when you went off on me over several involved posts that you later characterized as brief when they were not. You went into great detail and it was all to condemn me. You are a nasty abusive dishonest man. That is your character and I hope you do something about it because you are not the nice guy you pretend to be and want others to believe you are. Also I repeatedly asked you questions about Biblical matters and you repeatedly ignored them to be abusive toward me while insisting I not speak of anything other than Scripture.

My statement, “I am here to discuss Scripture, if you don’t want to do that, I cannot help you,” (Post #27,053) was written specifically to you and not to everyone on the forum (Seeing I quoted your post). When I said, “I am here to discuss Scripture,” I was expressing my goal in our discussion in this thread. I was letting you know what I wanted the focus of our exchange to be. It was not a declaration of some universal rule that I could never use logic, real-world examples, comic book pages, or anything else when responding to other posters. The statement applied to you, because I was replying directly to your post.

This is supported by the fact that on other Christian forums, whenever I intend to address everyone, I clearly signal it by saying “To all” or “To everyone.” If I meant my statement to apply universally to all posters, that is exactly how I would have phrased it. Since I did not do that here, the idea that I was laying down a blanket rule for the whole thread is simply incorrect.

For example, it would be like a store employee telling a single customer, “I am here to help you with your return,” and then someone in the returns line claiming to everyone that the employee just announced he cannot help anyone else with anything other than returns. That is not a reasonable interpretation. The employee was clearly speaking to one customer about their interaction, and it does not mean that they cannot help others in regards to other things (like telling them where the bathroom was, etc.). In the same way, when I said, “I am here to discuss Scripture,” that statement was directed to you, not everyone on the forum, and it reflected my goal in our exchange, not a universal rule.

In other words, my statement to you was simply a personal clarification of my goal in our conversation, not a universal limitation on how I discuss Scripture with others. You are imposing limitations on my conversation that I never stated, never implied, and never agreed to. If you believe otherwise, then please show me the post where I supposedly said that I promise never to discuss anything outside of Scripture with others in this thread using logic, real-world examples, comic illustrations, and so on. No such post exists.


Side Note:

I also did not say that I could not clarify things with you if you misunderstood me on something, either.
I was letting you know the goal of why I was here, and yet I did not want to focus on making it about me or anything else.



.....

 

[Jordon]

My statement, “I am here to discuss Scripture, if you don’t want to do that, I cannot help you,” (Post #27,053) was written specifically to you and not to everyone on the forum (Seeing I quoted your post). When I said, “I am here to discuss Scripture,” I was expressing my goal in our discussion in this thread. I was letting you know what I wanted the focus of our exchange to be. It was not a declaration of some universal rule that I could never use logic, real-world examples, comic book pages, or anything else when responding to other posters. The statement applied to you, because I was replying directly to your post.

This is supported by the fact that on other Christian forums, whenever I intend to address everyone, I clearly signal it by saying “To all” or “To everyone.” If I meant my statement to apply universally to all posters, that is exactly how I would have phrased it. Since I did not do that here, the idea that I was laying down a blanket rule for the whole thread is simply incorrect.

For example, it would be like a store employee telling a single customer, “I am here to help you with your return,” and then someone in the returns line claiming to everyone that the employee just announced he cannot help anyone else with anything other than returns. That is not a reasonable interpretation. The employee was clearly speaking to one customer about their interaction, and it does not mean that they cannot help others in regards to other things (like telling them where the bathroom was, etc.). In the same way, when I said, “I am here to discuss Scripture,” that statement was directed to you, not everyone on the forum, and it reflected my goal in our exchange, not a universal rule.

In other words, my statement to you was simply a personal clarification of my goal in our conversation, not a universal limitation on how I discuss Scripture with others. You are imposing limitations on my conversation that I never stated, never implied, and never agreed to. If you believe otherwise, then please show me the post where I supposedly said that I promise never to discuss anything outside of Scripture with others in this thread using logic, real-world examples, comic illustrations, and so on. No such post exists.



.....

wow it's a miracle 200 words and no mention of Calvinism

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

More of your dishonesty. You constantly diverted from Scripture to speak of other things to condemn me and you know it but refuse to admit it. You never mention this fact, just act like it was me making personal remarks to you when you went off on me over several involved posts that you later characterized as brief when they were not. You went into great detail and it was all to condemn me. You are a nasty abusive dishonest man. That is your character and I hope you do something about it because you are not the nice guy you pretend to be and want others to believe you are. Also I repeatedly asked you questions about Biblical matters and you repeatedly ignored them to be abusive toward me while insisting I not speak of anything other than Scripture.

So how do you understand the words, "might be saved" in 2 Thessalonians 2:10?
How do you understand Jonah 3, where Jonah said in 40 days the Nineveh shall be overthrown, and yet when God had seen that the Ninevites had forsaken their evil ways, He turned back from bring wrath or judgment that he had said that he would do unto them and he did it not?



......

 

[Jordon]

@cv5 guess what.

He-man. Is returning soon

 

[BillyBob]

I think you are misunderstanding what I said earlier, and it is turning into something I never intended.

When I told Magenta that I wanted to stick with Scripture, I was speaking specifically to her because of the way she was engaging with me. Her posts have repeatedly included hard to read font colors, off putting images, and personal remarks about my character. In that situation, I was saying, in effect, “Let us please keep it to Bible verses and not all the extra stuff.”

That is very different from making a universal rule that I must only ever quote Scripture with everyone, in every context, both on this forum and in real life. I never said that, and I do not believe that. There is a clear difference between:

1. Occasionally using logic, illustration, or other points alongside Scripture to refute Calvinism and defend free will, and
2. Filling posts with distracting fonts, pictures that several people find off putting, and constant accusations about someone’s character.

My comment to Magenta was about the second situation. It was not a blanket rule for every discussion partner. It was simply my way of saying, “Given the way you are interacting with me, I would prefer to focus on the Bible with you.” That does not “handcuff” me from using other kinds of arguments or illustrations with others in the thread, and it certainly does not bind me outside of the forum. I was talking to her, not issuing a new Bible commandment.

As for the comic book page, you also missed the point there. I did not create that page, but I used it as an illustration. In the story, an all powerful being (the Beyonder) forces a girl to “love” him. She says all the right words and even believes she loves him, but he explains that her love is not genuine, because it is produced by his power controlling her. Once he releases her from that control, she would go back to what she was before whereby she did not freely love him.

That picture was meant to show why forced “love” is not really love at all. In my view, the god of Calvinism functions like the Beyonder: he irresistibly causes certain people to “love” him, which raises serious questions about whether that love is truly free and genuine. That was the point of the analogy, nothing more and nothing less.


Side Note:

Oh, and I am not unaware of what is really going on here, either. I know that when someone has no solid response to what Scripture actually teaches, the next move is often to attack the other person instead of the argument. That is what is happening here. My words are being twisted into something I never meant, simply because my biblical points cannot be refuted.

This is not the first time I have experienced this with certain Calvinists. In past discussions, I have also encountered unfair treatment and tactics that were not honest or charitable. So I cannot say I am surprised to see the same pattern repeat itself.

But even so, we are all accountable before God for how we treat one another. Every believer should strive to reflect Christ, not resort to misrepresentation or mockery. There will be a Judgment, and the Lord sees every motive clearly. None of us will “get away” with anything done unjustly.

I truly hope that changes are made, because following Jesus means pursuing truth and integrity in all things. I am far from perfect myself, but I sincerely want to live in a way that honors the grace He has given me. I pray for the same for all of us here.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you.




....

.....

Please move on.
There is nothing wrong with Magenta using her art to bring God's word to the table, just as there is nothing wrong with using God's word in a new worship song.
She uses her work both [1]to support posts that she believes are correct, and also [2]to correct posts that she believes are in error. And, in both cases, they use the very word of God to do so!
I believe that your real problem with her using the panels can be found by looking at your side note where you say: “My words are being twisted into something I never meant, simply because my biblical points cannot be refuted.”
This is not true! Her panels do refute your point by showing that God says just the opposite. It's a lot more effective than a poorly contrived comic strip.

So, why don't you try reading the message on the panel rather than being an art critic.

 

[Magenta]

My statement, “I am here to discuss Scripture, if you don’t want to do that, I cannot help you,” (Post #27,053) was written specifically to you and not to everyone on the forum (Seeing I quoted your post). When I said, “I am here to discuss Scripture,” I was expressing my goal in our discussion in this thread. I was letting you know what I wanted the focus of our exchange to be. It was not a declaration of some universal rule that I could never use logic, real-world examples, comic book pages, or anything else when responding to other posters. The statement applied to you, because I was replying directly to your post.

This is supported by the fact that on other Christian forums, whenever I intend to address everyone, I clearly signal it by saying “To all” or “To everyone.” If I meant my statement to apply universally to all posters, that is exactly how I would have phrased it. Since I did not do that here, the idea that I was laying down a blanket rule for the whole thread is simply incorrect.

For example, it would be like a store employee telling a single customer, “I am here to help you with your return,” and then someone in the returns line claiming to everyone that the employee just announced he cannot help anyone else with anything other than returns. That is not a reasonable interpretation. The employee was clearly speaking to one customer about their interaction, and it does not mean that they cannot help others in regards to other things (like telling them where the bathroom was, etc.). In the same way, when I said, “I am here to discuss Scripture,” that statement was directed to you, not everyone on the forum, and it reflected my goal in our exchange, not a universal rule.

In other words, my statement to you was simply a personal clarification of my goal in our conversation, not a universal limitation on how I discuss Scripture with others. You are imposing limitations on my conversation that I never stated, never implied, and never agreed to. If you believe otherwise, then please show me the post where I supposedly said that I promise never to discuss anything outside of Scripture with others in this thread using logic, real-world examples, comic illustrations, and so on. No such post exists.

Side Note:

I also did not say that I could not clarify things with you if you misunderstood me on something, either.
I was letting you know the goal of why I was here, and yet I did not want to focus on making it about me or anything else.
..

You say you didn't want to make it about anything else but you kept making it about something else and then insisting I talk about nothing else but Scripture. The things you introduced into the conversation did not in any way indicate that you wished to have a respectful dialogue with me. You repeatedly lied about things and fail to comprehend in any way at all that what you were doing was not what you kept saying about having kind and respectful exchanges. In other words your actions did not match what you were saying about yourself. You poison the well and call it respectful? Kind? You are delusional. Stop making excuses for yourself.

 

[Magenta]

Your desire to misrepresent is still present in your posts, saying things about the font colour I use,
ONE colour, not any more than one as your pluralization would suggest, and it is a dark purple, very
close to black you complain about. You are a petty nasty abusive man making excuses for your rotten behaviour.

 

[HeIsHere]

Doubtless what this commentator intends to convey is the idea that primary emphasis is directed to the person of the portrait first and foremost. All else is secondary, tertiary or trivial by comparison, this by methodical intent, and habitually.

Wow..hmm... interesting, astute observation.

 

[HeIsHere]

So how do you understand the words, "might be saved" in 2 Thessalonians 2:10?
How do you understand Jonah 3, where Jonah said in 40 days the Nineveh shall be overthrown, and yet when God had seen that the Ninevites had forsaken their evil ways, He turned back from bring wrath or judgment that he had said that he would do unto them and he did it not?



......

@Bible_Highlighter they will not engage with scripture on any deeper level, the point is to control the flow of the conversation with constant superficial rebuttal, trip up the person and then follow up with ad hominem.

I personally think there is a reason the scripture states to "mark and avoid."

 

[Magenta]

Please move on.
There is nothing wrong with Magenta using her art to bring God's word to the table, just as there is nothing wrong with using God's word in a new worship song.
She uses her work both [1]to support posts that she believes are correct, and also [2]to correct posts that she believes are in error. And, in both cases, they use the very word of God to do so!
I believe that your real problem with her using the panels can be found by looking at your side note where you say: “My words are being twisted into something I never meant, simply because my biblical points cannot be refuted.”
This is not true! Her panels do refute your point by showing that God says just the opposite. It's a lot more effective than a poorly contrived comic strip.

So, why don't you try reading the message on the panel rather than being an art critic.

Thank you, BillyBob. These women haters are almost funny, did you see how that one guy talked about witches? They project their fantasies and want me to take the fall for them, as if I was depicting witches and fairies, though I am not. My panels depict beautiful women as well as men and other things, sometimes simply scenic or just a background of sorts, perhaps more abstract, although I was falsely accused of having only women in my panels by one of those guys. At least one panel has the woman's head covered, and this is probably very close to how women two thousand years ago looked, with their shawl coming up from their cloak to cover the back of their neck and head as it ascended to the top of the head. These men would likely have been burning women at the stake a few hundred years ago for using basil and oregano in tomato sauce. Nothing like a good witch hunt, as they say. And B_H pretends him going on and on in this vein shows a desire for respectful and kind dialogue? I understood why you laughed at his assertion. It seems he did not.

 

[Magenta]

@Bible_Highlighter they will not engage with scripture on any deeper level, the point is to control the flow of the conversation with constant superficial rebuttal, trip up the person and then follow up with ad hominem.

I personally think there is a reason the scripture states to "mark and avoid."

I am still waiting for answers to comments & questions put to him. Of course his delusional manner
of having kind and respectful dialogue means he keeps avoiding answering my questions to plaster
his ad homs and logical fallacies and rabbit trails around while pretending to be mister nice guy.

You are no stranger to making ad homs yourself. Many of your errors have
been presented to you multiple times and you NEVER address them.

 

[HeIsHere]

Perpetuated by those who choose to remain biblical illiterates. Tepid rebuttals consisting of hormonal opinions, infantile banter, and a sum total of 5 or 6 mis-apprehended misunderstood passages recited ad infinitum ad nauseum.

TULIP/Calvinism/Reformed doctrine is so very messed up.

 

[Magenta]

So how do you understand the words, "might be saved" in 2 Thessalonians 2:10?

I have answered you on this verse a number of times already, why do you hammer away at it while continuing to ignore questions I have put to you? That is no way to have respectful dialogue, not that I for moment any longer believe your assertions about your intentions following your deplorable behaviour which shows you have zero desire to take any responsibility for the nasty stuff you have introduced and defend and went on at length about. Brief it has not been. Nevertheless I did try to find the KJ concordance for the word might but could not find one. But it does seem to me that if one has a desire for truth then they pursue it. Do all pursuits of truth end with belief in God?

 

[Magenta]

TULIP/Calvinism/Reformed doctrine is so very messed up.

Like you applauding a God blasphemer and giving the impression that you agree with there only having been 5 or 6
verses given to demonstrate what you disagree with is not messed up? The dishonesty of your position is never ending.

 

[Magenta]

So how do you understand the words, "might be saved" in 2 Thessalonians 2:10?

It does also bring to mind
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[homwardbound]

Jesus was crucified very close to where God provided the ram for Abraham's
sacrifice (instead of Isaac [the child of promise]) on Mount Moriah.

Interesting, amazing
At Mt Moriah around in the vicinity
God is good all the time as good is God all the time

 

[Magenta]

Interesting, amazing
At Mt Moriah around in the vicinity
God is good all the time as good is God all the time

Yes, also known as the Temple Mount...

And I agree that God is good all the time, quite unlike these Pelagian heretics who blaspheme God and tell us that He does things for no good reason, and also put on airs because they believe they were smart enough and/or righteous enough, to make the right decision, to choose to believe what they heard as foolishness, without God even having anything to do with their coming to belief.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

You say you didn't want to make it about anything else but you kept making it about something else and then insisting I talk about nothing else but Scripture. The things you introduced into the conversation did not in any way indicate that you wished to have a respectful dialogue with me. You repeatedly lied about things and fail to comprehend in any way at all that what you were doing was not what you kept saying about having kind and respectful exchanges. In other words your actions did not match what you were saying about yourself. You poison the well and call it respectful? Kind? You are delusional. Stop making excuses for yourself.

Well if you were to employ your overly wooden literal approach with our Lord Jesus as you did with our conversation, you would have ended up rebuking and attacking Jesus for the same thing if you had lived back in His time and met Him (not knowing who He was).

Behold, the scene:

Matthew 15:22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David, my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away, for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith, be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Notice. Jesus first ignored this woman and her cries. Then Jesus told her, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Then she said, "Lord, help me." And Jesus replied, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." Now, she could have given up at this point, taking Jesus' words as final and absolute as you did with mine, with no exceptions. However, she obviously did not do that because she knows conversations can be fluid and words sometimes are not to be taken as some kind of straight jacket. In short, she discovered a rule of exception or loophole to what Jesus said. She replied, "Truth, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." In short, as a result, Jesus helped her (Which appeared to go against what Jesus previously said).

If it were you in this scene instead of the Canaanite woman, you would have later rebuked Jesus for going back on what He originally said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel,” and for telling her, “It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” Instead of humbling yourself as she did, you would have accused Him of contradicting His own words. You would have used these words to trap Him, get the help you needed and then turn on Him because He did not stick to His original wording that He gave you.




.....

 

[Magenta]

Well if you were to employ your overly wooden literal approach with our Lord Jesus as you did with our conversation, you would have ended up rebuking and attacking Jesus for the same thing if you had lived back in His time and met Him (not knowing who He was).

Behold, the scene:

Matthew 15:22-28
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David, my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away, for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith, be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Notice. Jesus first ignored this woman and her cries. Then Jesus told her, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Then she said, "Lord, help me." And Jesus replied, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs." Now, she could have given up at this point, taking Jesus' words as final and absolute as you did with mine, with no exceptions.. However, she obviously did not do that because she knows conversations can be fluid and words sometimes are not to be taken as some kind of straight jacket. In short, she discovered a rule of exception or loophole to what Jesus said. She replied, "Truth, Lord, yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table." In short, as a result, Jesus helped her (Which appeared to go against what Jesus previously said).

If it were you in this scene instead of the Canaanite woman, you would have later rebuked Jesus for going back on what He originally said, “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel,” and for telling her, “It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.” Instead of humbling yourself as she did, you would have accused Him of contradicting His own words.
....

You are no different than these other heretics who constantly misrepresent themselves and others while shamelessly attempting to maintain your good guy persona. You continue to lie but believe you have been seeking respectful and kind dialogue. You are delusional.