Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

DOUBLESPEAK! God "enables and enlightens" with weak, impotent ineffectual grace.

The problem Rufus is you are narrow minded in your expectation of grace. You see grace doing only one thing, saving man by changing him but Paul shows us sometimes God does not save in the way we expect. God did not change Paul or his circumstances in regards to his thorn in the side. Grace was given to overcome through endurance, not change.

Grace is God's power and will to do as he sees fit within the world and especially within the lives of believers. Grace given to stem the sin nature, free a man's will and shed the light/truth so he can decide for himself to believe or reject the word is effectual when we see men do the very thing for which grace is given.

Grace is what stops the sparrow falling to the ground and allows you your next breath. Grace is God's working policy in all things.

 

[Magenta]

Despite what the un-Biblical free will doctrine promoters put forth, the natural man does not have everything he needs in order to grow the good fruit of faith from the stony ground of his incurably wicked heart which is opposed to the things of God, and he cannot change himself, being a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness as a slave to sin, being inherently hostile in his mind toward God, and blinded to the truth while under the power of the evil one. Those who promote the free will of the natural man reject a plethora of Biblical truths. Praise God if Jesus has set you free!

 

[Magenta]

What Bible deniers and God blasphemers say is no good reason, Bible believers affirm as God's mercy.

Romans 9 verse 18; John 6 verse 44; John 6 verse 65; John 6 verse 37; John 6 verse63; Titus 3 verse5 ~ God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. He saved us because of His mercy, through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

 

[sawdust]

Yes. But even so, I want to show the love of Christ. Those images can be difficult to look at, especially when I am just trying to scroll through and find regular typed replies.



.....

They can also slow down page loading for me depending on how many she posts. My old eyes find them way too busy to read anyway. I have to have her on ignore, not because I don't want to read her comments, but because I simply can't with all those colours and fancy script.

 

[Kroogz]

Look carefully at how Paul opens Romans 9, and you’ll see that the subject is not individual predestination to heaven or hell. Romans 9:1–5 makes the context unmistakably national: Paul is heartbroken for Israel, his “kinsmen according to the flesh.” Romans 9–11 deals with the corporate destiny of Israel, not Calvinistic individual election.

Paul’s Repeated National References

9:3 — “my kinsmen according to the flesh”

9:4 — “the Israelites”

9:27 — “Though the number of the children of Israel…”

10:1 — “my heart’s desire…for Israel”

10:19 — “Israel”

10:21 — “to Israel he saith…”

11:1 — “I too am an Israelite”

11:2 — “his people which he foreknew”

11:7 — “Israel hath not obtained”

11:25 — “blindness in part happened to Israel”

Every example Paul uses is corporate.

Isaac vs. Ishmael – These represent descendants and nations, not individuals predestined to heaven or hell (Gen. 21–22).

Jacob vs. Esau – “Two NATIONS are in your womb” (Gen. 25:23). The passage is about national destiny and the Messianic lineage, not God eternally choosing one baby for heaven and the other for hell.

Pharaoh – A national representative. God “raised him up” to power (Rom. 9:17), not created him for damnation. Pharaoh represents Egypt, and striking Pharaoh meant striking Egypt (Ex. 3:19–20; 7–14; Ps. 105:26–28). “The king of Egypt will not let you go…so I will strike Egypt.” Notice the corporate pattern: king is representative of the nation. The people followed him, supported him, benefited from slavery, and shared in that national rebellion. Scripture itself says the Egyptians collectively oppressed Israel (not just Pharaoh): “the Egyptians mistreated us, afflicted us, and laid hard bondage on us.”(Deut. 26:6). Even after multiple plagues, the people still supported Pharaoh’s refusal to release Israel. There was no national repentance. They shared his pride, his defiance, and his oppression. Egypt enslaved God’s people, murdered Hebrew children (Ex. 1), refused God’s command through Moses (Ex. 5), exalted their gods above Yahweh (Ex. 12, 18). These were national sins, not just Pharaoh’s personal ones. Even after multiple plagues, the people still supported Pharaoh’s refusal to release Israel. When Israel did leave, the Egyptians even pursued them to force them back into slavery (Ex. 14).

Isaiah’s remnant prophecy – Paul quotes Isaiah to show that God’s judgment and mercy concern Israel as a nation, not individual predestination (Rom. 9:27–29; Isa. 10:22–23; 1:9). Isaiah says “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved.” Paul applies this corporately: the nation as a whole would face judgment, yet a remnant would survive. This is national preservation, not individual reprobation.

Hosea (“not My people / My people”) – Entire peoples and groups—Israel and the Gentiles—are in view (Hos. 1:10; 2:23; Rom. 9:24–26). Again, corporate categories, not individuals decreed to eternal destinations.

Paul shows that God’s choice of nations (Israel/Gentiles) in salvation history explains why believing Gentiles are included and unbelieving Jews excluded—while still fulfilling the promise to Abraham. That is the primary meaning of Romans 9–11.

Individual application exists, as Paul applies the same potter/clay principle individually in 2 Timothy 2:20–21:
but not the way Calvinism teaches.

Here’s an analogy:

Suppose a master potter owns a workshop.

He already has blueprints of what kinds of vessels he will honor and what kinds he will reject before he ever touches the clay. He had already concluded beforehand:

“If the clay stays soft and workable, I will make it a vessel for honor. If the clay hardens and refuses to be shaped, it will become a vessel of dishonor.” Those are his preordained criteria, not preordained individuals.

Now, consider two types of clay:

1. Clay #1 remains soft. It responds to the potter's touch. It yields. It can be molded. The potter says: "Even so, this vessel has become the very thing I resolved beforehand for all obedient clay—a vessel for honor."

2. Clay #2 sets. It resists. It refuses shaping. It becomes rigid. The potter says: "This vessel becomes exactly what I planned beforehand for all rebellious clay - a vessel for dishonor."

Notice: The potter had predetermined the result, not each piece of clay's identity or response. It is the response of the clay that determines its destiny.

That is Jeremiah 18 precisely that Paul is quoting in Romans 9.

Gentiles believed = vessels of mercy (Rom. 9:30)

Israel rejected faith = vessels of wrath (Rom. 9:31–33; 10:21; 11:7)

Gentiles = Clay that responded. Gentiles believed, and were formed into vessels of mercy (Rom. 9:24–26).

Israel = Clay that hardened. National Israel hardened itself. Cf. Rom. 9:31–33; 10:21; 11:7.

God shapes a nation based on its repentance or rebellion. Nothing in Jeremiah 18 or Romans 9 teaches unconditional predestination.

When we get to chapter 10, the mistake many Calvinists make is assuming the individual salvation language in Romans 10:9-13 means Paul changed subjects. Not so. He still speaks about corporate Israel:

“My heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that THEY might be saved.” (10:1)

The application is individual (Rom. 10:9–13), but the subject remains national Israel.

Anyone in Israel—and anyone anywhere—can obey the gospel and be saved. Nothing about predestined individuals.

In conclusion: Paul's whole argument in Romans 9 is corporate. There's not one example in Romans 9 of God choosing an individual for personal salvation the way Calvinism teaches. Romans 9:1–5 is explicitly about Israel as a nation rejecting Christ. Romans 9:6–13 uses Jacob/Esau as nations, not isolated individual destinies. Romans 9:24–26 applies Hosea's prophecy about restoring Israel and calling the Gentiles. Romans 9:27-29 quotes Isaiah about the remnant of Israel and the destruction of a nation. Romans 10–11 continues discussing Israel and the Gentiles, not individual predestinations. Everything having to do with the main, primary meaning is corporate. Any individual application is secondary and flows from the corporate principle.

Anyone who rejects this..........Does so knowingly......freewillingly.

Superb.

We have a benevolent God. Unlike the calvies god.

 

[Kroogz]

What Bible deniers and God blasphemers say is no good reason, Bible believers affirm as God's mercy.

Romans 9 verse 18; John 6 verse 44; John 6 verse 65; John 6 verse 37; John 6 verse63; Titus 3 verse5 ~ God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. He saved us because of His mercy, through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Just for you? The rest of humanity is blind, deaf and can never have what you have?

You were in the same boat.
Rom 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

 

[Solitude]

 

[Me_Clay]

They can also slow down page loading for me depending on how many she posts. My old eyes find them way too busy to read anyway. I have to have her on ignore, not because I don't want to read her comments, but because I simply can't with all those colours and fancy script.

The emphasis goes to woman picture

 

[Magenta]

Just for you? The rest of humanity is blind, deaf and can never have what you have?

You were in the same boat.
Rom 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

As usual you misrepresent. It seems to be your specialty. That and wilful blindness.

You do like to pretend other things as well. Such a pretender you are!

And you are one of those who pushes the "God forces people" narrative.

 

[Jordon]

As usual you misrepresent. It seems to be your specialty. That and wilful blindness.

You do like to pretend other things as well. Such a pretender you are!

he doesn't realise Paul is writing a letter for one reason only, and your right he can't answer any question.

I'm so sorry there all gas lighting you.

Paul is writing the letter in romans 11 because he knows the stubborn side of Israel has been bound over to disobedience.

And Paul is speaking to the promised house of Israel at the same time as writing.

Here is Paul's reason for the letter.

Romans 11 says this, i am writing This letter for this reason


in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.


He knows the Israelites that are not saved and God has bound them over to disobedeiance.


He also knows God does not reject the ones he for-knew means the one he knows all there life.

Because God did reject 600.000 of his chosen people of entering the promised land in numbers. Chosen meaning all are called few are chosen

Meaning he was no longer for-knowing them, because he For-knew them.

He does not reject those who keeps on for-knewing

The reality is sis Paul is writing a letter not explaining everything in full, but make it clear all of the true house of Israel will be saved


The children of the house of Israel the promise.

The other harsh reality sis is you are being gas lighted here ever day.

 

[Jordon]

@Blue155 : Oh, dear! I was hoping you wouldn't ask!

Would we still be friends if I told you that I'm a non-free willer now?!

only if you are willing to accept you have Gods will in you.

And that free will lives in the flesh.

 

[Genez]

Well this gets you added to the God blasphemer list for claiming that God does things for no good reason when Scripture plainly identifies that He does things for His own good pleasure. But we already know you don't believe what the Bible says.

Maybe you should actually read the Bible.

It is time:

Do you realize that one of your favorite verses to quote was all about?

Jeremiah 17:9​

​

The heart is deceitful above all things​

and beyond cure.​

Who can understand it?​

That verse was spoken to Jeremiah by the Lord.

Why?

Jeremiah's woman had abandoned Jeremiah.
She gone off to the phallic cult orgies that were taking place in the high places in Israel.
High places where the rebellious Jews had been performing child sacrifice and pagan sex rituals.
Rituals that God forbade the Jews to partake in.

God in essence, said something to Jeremiah more like the following.
Which was spoken to the deeply heart broken Jeremiah.
For his unrepentant ex fiancé was embracing all the promiscuity and degeneracy with the sex orgies.

Here is what was communicated by the Lord to Jeremiah.
It was concerning his ex woman and the people who become addicted to the pagan sex cult.

It should red more like this!

The deceitful heart is above all things is beyond cure.​

Who can understand it?​

Jeremiah could not make sense of how she and the rebellious Jews could be thinking like they were.
The Lord was stating to Jeremiah that she had entered into a form of insanity due to her perverse obsession that the phallic cult
produced in her, and the Jews doing the same!

Here is more like what was being said...

The deceitful heart is above all things is beyond cure.​

Who can understand it?​

Because of their deceitful hearts?
Israel was about to be destroyed by Babylon by God's judgement of Israel who had fallen into cultic degeneracy.

The cultic practice caused people's minds to become DECEITFUL. Beyond understanding!

And... they became beyond cure!

That was why Nebucanneezar's army would be invading and slaughtering many of those Jews in God's judgement of the people.


There you have it.

Quite different when what we only have is only a translation into English with no explanation given for what was being said..
A translation that gives no historical background for why something was written.

Now?
If interested?

Order the Jeremiah series.
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

149 hours of rare and excellent exegetical expository teaching.

149 hours that will cost you nothing if you wish not to donate.
It will be sent anyway.


grace and peace ........

 

[Jordon]

@Magenta : Good one, sister.

Thanks buddy for your good support friend.

What you have to notice friend is there all gas lighting her.

There nothing but gas lighters stomping there own authority everyday

By the will of there flesh

 

[Kroogz]

As usual you misrepresent. It seems to be your specialty. That and wilful blindness.

You do like to pretend other things as well. Such a pretender you are!

And you are one of those who pushes the "God forces people" narrative.

Nope.

We have a benevolent God. You are not special. I am not special.

We have a God that is not willing that any should perish.....learn it, love it, live it and TEACH IT.

Salvation is for ALL. Not just for you.

 

[sawdust]

The emphasis goes to woman picture

She is a woman so not sure where you're going with that.

Certainly hope you're not suggesting women can't learn and share the things of God.

 

[Blue155]

@Kroogz, why would God choose someone who is just as “totally depraved” per Calvinism and not the other who is just as “totally depraved”? Is the “frozen chosen” not as totally depraved?

 

[Jordon]

.

Salvation is for ALL. Not just for you.

errrr she's said that many times it's just your deaf

 

[Kroogz]

@Kroogz, why would God choose someone who is just as “totally depraved” per Calvinism and not the other who is just as “totally depraved”? Is the “frozen chosen” not as totally depraved?

John 3:16
Acts 16:31

It really is as simple as that.

The calvies trip and fall flat on their face right out of the gate. The race has not begun for them.

 

[Magenta]

Thanks buddy for your good support friend.

What you have to notice friend is there all gas lighting her.

There nothing but gas lighters stomping there own authority everyday

By the will of there flesh

Yes, thank you and @OLDBUTNEW for your support, Jordon you especially have been
quite valiant, these Bible deniers hate the Scriptural truths presented and want to
kill the messenger, that is pretty obvious with their endless hostility and fabrications.

 

[Jordon]

Yes, thank you and @OLDBUTNEW for your support, Jordon you especially have been
quite valiant, these Bible deniers hate the Scriptural truths presented and want to
kill the messenger, that is pretty obvious with their endless hostility and fabrications.

I know you welcome new members here everyday to this forum who may not be saved, I read a lot of your precious posts friend