Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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John 3 v 20-21 ~ Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.
The wicked man boasts in the cravings of his heart; he blesses the greedy and reviles the LORD. In his pride the wicked man does not seek Him; in all his schemes there is no God. Psalm 10 v 3-4 Mocker is the name of the proud and arrogant man - of him who acts with excessive pride. Proverbs 21 v 24 The proud look of man will be humbled, and the loftiness of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. For the Day of the LORD of Hosts will come against all the proud and lofty, against all that is exalted - it will be humbled. Isaiah 2 v 11-12 No flesh may boast before God. 1 Cor 1 v 29
Surely the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear Him, on those whose hope is in His loving devotion. As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him. Fear the LORD, you His saints, for those who fear Him lack nothing. Psalm 33 v 18, Psalm 103 v 13, Psalm 34 v 9
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Blue155
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we have discussed and I understand your claim.
Do you understand my claim?
In Post 26,530, I provided more than 10 verses from Scripture wherein God encourages us to have no fear as opposed to your claim that God strengthens fear in the life of the believer. There are more verses telling us to have no fear ... however, I could not post due to size constraints on the CC site.
In Post 26,389, I provided all the uses of the Greek word sklērýnō, translated "harden" and showed that hardening the heart is not something God does ... and that hardening our hearts is not good.
Have you considered what Scripture says concerning these issues?
In Numbers 12, Moses sent spies into the land of Canaan. The report of the spies (except Caleb and Joshua) was that the Israelites should not go into the land ... Numbers 13:25-33. Caleb argued that they should go in at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it (Num 13:30).Jordon said:
In Numbers 14:1-10, Caleb and Joshua told the people they should go into the land. However, the people would not listen and wanted to stone Joshua and Caleb, which angered God.
In Numbers 14:11-19, God told Moses He would smite the children of Israel and make a nation from Moses. Moses pleaded on behalf of the people and God relented, but proclaimed that only Joshua, Caleb, and those who were 20 years old and younger would go into the promised land (Num 14:20-39).
The next day, the children of Israel wanted to go into the promised land. Moses warned them that they should not go. But they went anyway and they were attacked and driven back by the Amalekites and the Canaanites (Num 14:40-45).
If the people would have listened to Joshua and Caleb (2 witnesses), they could have gone into the promised land and God would have blessed them as He had promised.Jordon said:
Because of their obstinacy and rebellion, they were chastened by God ... when they did not listen to God because they did not like His chastening, they tried to go in, and they were driven away.
Even Moses did not go in because of his disobedience at the rock. However, God did allow Moses to see the promised land before he passed (Deut 32:51-52).
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has it occurred to you that the Word of God is a living Word? The natural man does not always reject what is written in Scripture, notwithstanding your insistence to the contrary.
How many people who are not born again believe there is a God Who created the heavens and the earth?
How many people who are not born again believe children should obey their parents?
How many people who are not born again believe it is not good to murder ... steal ... commit adultery?
who "sticks her head in the sand" when it comes to the living Word of God? ... who believes mankind "incapable" and does not take into consideration the fact that Scripture is not just words on a page ...
Psalm 119:130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
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What the Lord Jesus Christ said ...
Matthew 15:8-9 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Scripturally, religious people are the ones who draw near to God with their mouth, honor God with their lips ... but their hearts are far from God because they teach the commandments of men while claiming the commandments of men are the doctrines of God.
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We've gone through the record in 1 Cor 2 ... wholly rejected by some ...
see here ... and the link in the post.
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The Lord Jesus Christ Himself proclaimed His death and resurrection ...
Matthew 20:18-19 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
and forgiveness of sins was also proclaimed ...
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
and redemption ... Anna prophesied when the Lord Jesus Christ was brought to the temple when He was 8 days old ...
Luke 2:36-38 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of redemption ...
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
yes, this is true ... and keep in mind ... for those who believe the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation ... the power of God, Magenta ... this power of God is what appears to be absent when you yammer on about man in his fallen state.Magenta said:
... and these "theological implications, riches, and practical applications are inexhaustible, providing a lifetime of exploration for believers" are what is referred to in 1 Cor 2:14. These things go beyond the simplicity of "Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (1 Cor 2:2) ... which is what Paul taught in the general congregation in the church at Corinth.Magenta said:
But when Paul gathered with those who were more spiritually mature (1 Cor 2:6), Paul taught matters that went beyond "Jesus Christ, and him crucified" ... and God revealed some things to Paul which were never revealed at any time throughout the history of mankind ... until God revealed to Paul (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:9; Col 1:26).
That is why 1 Cor 2:8 declares "which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory" ... if satan and his minions had known what God revealed to Paul ... after the ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ into heaven ... they would never have crucified Christ.
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Man is born in transgression and sin (Psalm 51 verse 5, 58 verse 3), dead in transgressions (Ephesians 2 verse 5), his heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), held captive by a love for sin (John 3 verse 19; John 8 verse 34), so that he will not seek God (Romans 3 verses 10-11), because he loves the darkness (John 3 verse 19), and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), nor can he change himself (Jeremiah 13 verse 23). He suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1 verse 18) and continues to willfully live in sin because he is totally depraved; this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14 verse 12); they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1 verse 18), and their mind is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. (Romans 8 verse 7).
None should wonder that neither of you understand...
Romans 9 verses 11-13 ~ Before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she (Rebekah) was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Galatians 5 verse 1 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Romans 6 verse 18 Be careful, however, that your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 1 Corinthians 8 verse 9 Live in freedom, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 1 Peter 2 verse 16 Though I am free of obligation to anyone, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 1 Corinthians 9 verse 19
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Blue155
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Look carefully at how Paul opens Romans 9, and you’ll see that the subject is not individual predestination to heaven or hell. Romans 9:1–5 makes the context unmistakably national: Paul is heartbroken for Israel, his “kinsmen according to the flesh.” Romans 9–11 deals with the corporate destiny of Israel, not Calvinistic individual election.
Paul’s Repeated National References
9:3 — “my kinsmen according to the flesh”
9:4 — “the Israelites”
9:27 — “Though the number of the children of Israel…”
10:1 — “my heart’s desire…for Israel”
10:19 — “Israel”
10:21 — “to Israel he saith…”
11:1 — “I too am an Israelite”
11:2 — “his people which he foreknew”
11:7 — “Israel hath not obtained”
11:25 — “blindness in part happened to Israel”
Every example Paul uses is corporate.
Isaac vs. Ishmael – These represent descendants and nations, not individuals predestined to heaven or hell (Gen. 21–22).
Jacob vs. Esau – “Two NATIONS are in your womb” (Gen. 25:23). The passage is about national destiny and the Messianic lineage, not God eternally choosing one baby for heaven and the other for hell.
Pharaoh – A national representative. God “raised him up” to power (Rom. 9:17), not created him for damnation. Pharaoh represents Egypt, and striking Pharaoh meant striking Egypt (Ex. 3:19–20; 7–14; Ps. 105:26–28). “The king of Egypt will not let you go…so I will strike Egypt.” Notice the corporate pattern: king is representative of the nation. The people followed him, supported him, benefited from slavery, and shared in that national rebellion. Scripture itself says the Egyptians collectively oppressed Israel (not just Pharaoh): “the Egyptians mistreated us, afflicted us, and laid hard bondage on us.”(Deut. 26:6). Even after multiple plagues, the people still supported Pharaoh’s refusal to release Israel. There was no national repentance. They shared his pride, his defiance, and his oppression. Egypt enslaved God’s people, murdered Hebrew children (Ex. 1), refused God’s command through Moses (Ex. 5), exalted their gods above Yahweh (Ex. 12, 18). These were national sins, not just Pharaoh’s personal ones. Even after multiple plagues, the people still supported Pharaoh’s refusal to release Israel. When Israel did leave, the Egyptians even pursued them to force them back into slavery (Ex. 14).
Isaiah’s remnant prophecy – Paul quotes Isaiah to show that God’s judgment and mercy concern Israel as a nation, not individual predestination (Rom. 9:27–29; Isa. 10:22–23; 1:9). Isaiah says “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved.” Paul applies this corporately: the nation as a whole would face judgment, yet a remnant would survive. This is national preservation, not individual reprobation.
Hosea (“not My people / My people”) – Entire peoples and groups—Israel and the Gentiles—are in view (Hos. 1:10; 2:23; Rom. 9:24–26). Again, corporate categories, not individuals decreed to eternal destinations.
Paul shows that God’s choice of nations (Israel/Gentiles) in salvation history explains why believing Gentiles are included and unbelieving Jews excluded—while still fulfilling the promise to Abraham. That is the primary meaning of Romans 9–11.
Individual application exists, as Paul applies the same potter/clay principle individually in 2 Timothy 2:20–21:
but not the way Calvinism teaches.
Here’s an analogy:
Suppose a master potter owns a workshop.
He already has blueprints of what kinds of vessels he will honor and what kinds he will reject before he ever touches the clay. He had already concluded beforehand:
“If the clay stays soft and workable, I will make it a vessel for honor. If the clay hardens and refuses to be shaped, it will become a vessel of dishonor.” Those are his preordained criteria, not preordained individuals.
Now, consider two types of clay:
1. Clay #1 remains soft. It responds to the potter's touch. It yields. It can be molded. The potter says: "Even so, this vessel has become the very thing I resolved beforehand for all obedient clay—a vessel for honor."
2. Clay #2 sets. It resists. It refuses shaping. It becomes rigid. The potter says: "This vessel becomes exactly what I planned beforehand for all rebellious clay - a vessel for dishonor."
Notice: The potter had predetermined the result, not each piece of clay's identity or response. It is the response of the clay that determines its destiny.
That is Jeremiah 18 precisely that Paul is quoting in Romans 9.
Gentiles believed = vessels of mercy (Rom. 9:30)
Israel rejected faith = vessels of wrath (Rom. 9:31–33; 10:21; 11:7)
Gentiles = Clay that responded. Gentiles believed, and were formed into vessels of mercy (Rom. 9:24–26).
Israel = Clay that hardened. National Israel hardened itself. Cf. Rom. 9:31–33; 10:21; 11:7.
God shapes a nation based on its repentance or rebellion. Nothing in Jeremiah 18 or Romans 9 teaches unconditional predestination.
When we get to chapter 10, the mistake many Calvinists make is assuming the individual salvation language in Romans 10:9-13 means Paul changed subjects. Not so. He still speaks about corporate Israel:
“My heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that THEY might be saved.” (10:1)
The application is individual (Rom. 10:9–13), but the subject remains national Israel.
Anyone in Israel—and anyone anywhere—can obey the gospel and be saved. Nothing about predestined individuals.
In conclusion: Paul's whole argument in Romans 9 is corporate. There's not one example in Romans 9 of God choosing an individual for personal salvation the way Calvinism teaches. Romans 9:1–5 is explicitly about Israel as a nation rejecting Christ. Romans 9:6–13 uses Jacob/Esau as nations, not isolated individual destinies. Romans 9:24–26 applies Hosea's prophecy about restoring Israel and calling the Gentiles. Romans 9:27-29 quotes Isaiah about the remnant of Israel and the destruction of a nation. Romans 10–11 continues discussing Israel and the Gentiles, not individual predestinations. Everything having to do with the main, primary meaning is corporate. Any individual application is secondary and flows from the corporate principle.
Paul’s Repeated National References
9:3 — “my kinsmen according to the flesh”
9:4 — “the Israelites”
9:27 — “Though the number of the children of Israel…”
10:1 — “my heart’s desire…for Israel”
10:19 — “Israel”
10:21 — “to Israel he saith…”
11:1 — “I too am an Israelite”
11:2 — “his people which he foreknew”
11:7 — “Israel hath not obtained”
11:25 — “blindness in part happened to Israel”
Every example Paul uses is corporate.
Isaac vs. Ishmael – These represent descendants and nations, not individuals predestined to heaven or hell (Gen. 21–22).
Jacob vs. Esau – “Two NATIONS are in your womb” (Gen. 25:23). The passage is about national destiny and the Messianic lineage, not God eternally choosing one baby for heaven and the other for hell.
Pharaoh – A national representative. God “raised him up” to power (Rom. 9:17), not created him for damnation. Pharaoh represents Egypt, and striking Pharaoh meant striking Egypt (Ex. 3:19–20; 7–14; Ps. 105:26–28). “The king of Egypt will not let you go…so I will strike Egypt.” Notice the corporate pattern: king is representative of the nation. The people followed him, supported him, benefited from slavery, and shared in that national rebellion. Scripture itself says the Egyptians collectively oppressed Israel (not just Pharaoh): “the Egyptians mistreated us, afflicted us, and laid hard bondage on us.”(Deut. 26:6). Even after multiple plagues, the people still supported Pharaoh’s refusal to release Israel. There was no national repentance. They shared his pride, his defiance, and his oppression. Egypt enslaved God’s people, murdered Hebrew children (Ex. 1), refused God’s command through Moses (Ex. 5), exalted their gods above Yahweh (Ex. 12, 18). These were national sins, not just Pharaoh’s personal ones. Even after multiple plagues, the people still supported Pharaoh’s refusal to release Israel. When Israel did leave, the Egyptians even pursued them to force them back into slavery (Ex. 14).
Isaiah’s remnant prophecy – Paul quotes Isaiah to show that God’s judgment and mercy concern Israel as a nation, not individual predestination (Rom. 9:27–29; Isa. 10:22–23; 1:9). Isaiah says “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved.” Paul applies this corporately: the nation as a whole would face judgment, yet a remnant would survive. This is national preservation, not individual reprobation.
Hosea (“not My people / My people”) – Entire peoples and groups—Israel and the Gentiles—are in view (Hos. 1:10; 2:23; Rom. 9:24–26). Again, corporate categories, not individuals decreed to eternal destinations.
Paul shows that God’s choice of nations (Israel/Gentiles) in salvation history explains why believing Gentiles are included and unbelieving Jews excluded—while still fulfilling the promise to Abraham. That is the primary meaning of Romans 9–11.
Individual application exists, as Paul applies the same potter/clay principle individually in 2 Timothy 2:20–21:
but not the way Calvinism teaches.
Here’s an analogy:
Suppose a master potter owns a workshop.
He already has blueprints of what kinds of vessels he will honor and what kinds he will reject before he ever touches the clay. He had already concluded beforehand:
“If the clay stays soft and workable, I will make it a vessel for honor. If the clay hardens and refuses to be shaped, it will become a vessel of dishonor.” Those are his preordained criteria, not preordained individuals.
Now, consider two types of clay:
1. Clay #1 remains soft. It responds to the potter's touch. It yields. It can be molded. The potter says: "Even so, this vessel has become the very thing I resolved beforehand for all obedient clay—a vessel for honor."
2. Clay #2 sets. It resists. It refuses shaping. It becomes rigid. The potter says: "This vessel becomes exactly what I planned beforehand for all rebellious clay - a vessel for dishonor."
Notice: The potter had predetermined the result, not each piece of clay's identity or response. It is the response of the clay that determines its destiny.
That is Jeremiah 18 precisely that Paul is quoting in Romans 9.
Gentiles believed = vessels of mercy (Rom. 9:30)
Israel rejected faith = vessels of wrath (Rom. 9:31–33; 10:21; 11:7)
Gentiles = Clay that responded. Gentiles believed, and were formed into vessels of mercy (Rom. 9:24–26).
Israel = Clay that hardened. National Israel hardened itself. Cf. Rom. 9:31–33; 10:21; 11:7.
God shapes a nation based on its repentance or rebellion. Nothing in Jeremiah 18 or Romans 9 teaches unconditional predestination.
When we get to chapter 10, the mistake many Calvinists make is assuming the individual salvation language in Romans 10:9-13 means Paul changed subjects. Not so. He still speaks about corporate Israel:
“My heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that THEY might be saved.” (10:1)
The application is individual (Rom. 10:9–13), but the subject remains national Israel.
Anyone in Israel—and anyone anywhere—can obey the gospel and be saved. Nothing about predestined individuals.
In conclusion: Paul's whole argument in Romans 9 is corporate. There's not one example in Romans 9 of God choosing an individual for personal salvation the way Calvinism teaches. Romans 9:1–5 is explicitly about Israel as a nation rejecting Christ. Romans 9:6–13 uses Jacob/Esau as nations, not isolated individual destinies. Romans 9:24–26 applies Hosea's prophecy about restoring Israel and calling the Gentiles. Romans 9:27-29 quotes Isaiah about the remnant of Israel and the destruction of a nation. Romans 10–11 continues discussing Israel and the Gentiles, not individual predestinations. Everything having to do with the main, primary meaning is corporate. Any individual application is secondary and flows from the corporate principle.
Jordan said:
There is nothing improper about bashing the belief of Calvinism. Calvinists and Anti Free Will Proponents openly bash the belief of Arminianism and the biblical truth of human choice, so this is not a one sided issue. The victim card will not work here, and Jordan and NightTwister have already tried that approach. While I may call out bad behavior on occasion, that is not the focus here. The real issue is the doctrine itself.
Well, I believe that free will in choosing God exists within God’s divine enlightenment or enablement. God is the One who graciously draws, convicts, and opens the heart so that a person can truly understand the truth. Yet even with that divine enablement, the individual still must freely choose to believe or reject what God is offering. That choice is real, not forced, and not predetermined.
The issue is that God gives enough light and understanding to all men so that they can respond freely. That is why Scripture repeatedly calls people to repent, believe, seek the Lord, and receive the truth. These commands only make sense if genuine free will exists under God’s gracious influence.
In short, God enables, but man chooses. God enlightens, but man must respond. Free will is real, and Scripture affirms it throughout.
However, your approach in this thread is a mystery to me in this discussion, friend.
You appear to give likes to both sides.
Do you not understand the moral problem or evil in Calvinism?
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Do you believe Jesus saves those who ultimately choose to believe false doctrine?
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Blue155
Guest