Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

yes, not a good thing.





yes.





the word "harden" in Romans 9:18 is translated from the Greek word sklērýnō, which means sklērýnō – to harden; become inflexible (literally "dried out"); (figuratively) obstinately stubborn, resisting what God says is right [HELPS Word-studies (bold mine)].

Here are the verses in Scripture in which the word sklērýnō is used:

Acts 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

The hardened heart is the heart of stone ... born again believers have been given the new heart of flesh upon which God writes His Word.

I would also ask you to pray about this hardening of the heart ... I do not believe it is a good thing, Jordon.

.

Except when it is! Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God and that worked out quite well for God's rescue mission for the ancient Hebrews.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

another thing you've not answered yet.

Or you've not seen

In Romans 9:18

The lord says whom he hardens he hardens, and whom he has mercy in he does.

Well what can they have with a heart of unbelief,

the heart of unbelief is the stony heart. the heart of unbelief turns away from God:

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

a born again believer may stumble from time to time, but he or she will repent and turn back to God. In Luke 15, the Lord Jesus Christ taught about the Shepherd Who leaves the 99 to seek out the one who has wandered ... the Shepherd lays the lost one on His shoulders and carries him or her back to the fold. This is a great and precious promise Jordon.

Here it is

Is a saved person going to sin because of unbelief or because of belief in what he doing is correct.

there are various reasons a born again believer sins ...

the believer may not know that something is sin due to ignorance of Scripture ...

the believer can be drawn away through the lusts of the flesh as described in James 1 ...

the believer may resist the renewing of the mind and remain conformed to this world.

I believe God gives warning when we are straying off the path ... you know how the Holy Spirit convicts ... and when we do sin, we are to turn back to God, confess our sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive us (1 John 1:9).

One of the things I do when I go to bed at night is pray that if I have sinned in any manner during the day, I ask God to show me where I strayed and I ask God to forgive me. God is so, so good to us.

So can the lord harden your heart to not sin.

Again, I do not believe God hardens our heart.

I do believe God works within our hearts to give warning so we do not sin ... but if we do not pay heed and sin ... that is because we have been drawn away from Him.

What is strength in the heart,

Psalm 73:26-28

26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

God strengthens our hearts and it is good for us to draw near to God, put our trust in Him, and declare all His works.

Those who turn from God and "go a whoring" ... they turn from God to idols ... they will be destroyed if they do not turn to God when He reaches out to them before they pass away. God gives us the whole of our lifetime to turn to Him when He reaches out ... He does not hide Himself. Those who do not turn to Him in their life are the ones who rejected Him when He reached out to them.

Why look at hardening in one direction.

I showed you all the places where the word sklērýnō (harden/hardened) is used (Post 26,377). Do you see a verse which indicates sklērýnō is a good thing?

When the Adams heart was hardened by who's will was that.

Eve ate because she was deceived by satan ... she saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise (Gen 3:6).

Adam ate because he joined his wife in her fallen state.

Did the lord not say if eat from that tree you will die.

God told Adam of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen 2:17).

If the lord hardens your heart in unbelief for another reason with strength will you show mercy ?

In Eph 5:1 we are told to be imitators of God has His dear children.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

.

 

[Jackson129]

And they were also DISCIPLES! Plus all believers are "apostles" in the sense that all Christ's disciples are his messengers (sent ones) commissioned to preach the gospel. All His disciples are His ambassadors, i.e. representatives.

Apostles is a term for those who got the gospel directly through Christ. Person to person.

 

[tourist]

I can only agree to the extent that when a person sins, he or she is not struck dead on the spot ... in allowing the person time to repent would be merciful and gracious on the part of God.

God allows time for the sinner to repent and in so doing, we can see God's love, grace, mercy.

Does that sound about right to you?

.

Sounds right to me for sure.

 

[tourist]

the heart of unbelief is the stony heart. the heart of unbelief turns away from God:

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

a born again believer may stumble from time to time, but he or she will repent and turn back to God. In Luke 15, the Lord Jesus Christ taught about the Shepherd Who leaves the 99 to seek out the one who has wandered ... the Shepherd lays the lost one on His shoulders and carries him or her back to the fold. This is a great and precious promise Jordon.





there are various reasons a born again believer sins ...

the believer may not know that something is sin due to ignorance of Scripture ...

the believer can be drawn away through the lusts of the flesh as described in James 1 ...

the believer may resist the renewing of the mind and remain conformed to this world.

I believe God gives warning when we are straying off the path ... you know how the Holy Spirit convicts ... and when we do sin, we are to turn back to God, confess our sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive us (1 John 1:9).

One of the things I do when I go to bed at night is pray that if I have sinned in any manner during the day, I ask God to show me where I strayed and I ask God to forgive me. God is so, so good to us.





Again, I do not believe God hardens our heart.

I do believe God works within our hearts to give warning so we do not sin ... but if we do not pay heed and sin ... that is because we have been drawn away from Him.





Psalm 73:26-28

26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

God strengthens our hearts and it is good for us to draw near to God, put our trust in Him, and declare all His works.

Those who turn from God and "go a whoring" ... they turn from God to idols ... they will be destroyed if they do not turn to God when He reaches out to them before they pass away. God gives us the whole of our lifetime to turn to Him when He reaches out ... He does not hide Himself. Those who do not turn to Him in their life are the ones who rejected Him when He reached out to them.





I showed you all the places where the word sklērýnō (harden/hardened) is used (Post 26,377). Do you see a verse which indicates sklērýnō is a good thing?





Eve ate because she was deceived by satan ... she saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise (Gen 3:6).

Adam ate because he joined his wife in her fallen state.





God told Adam of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen 2:17).





In Eph 5:1 we are told to be imitators of God has His dear children.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

.

Your scriptural analysis is right on target.

 

[Jordon]

the heart of unbelief is the stony heart. the heart of unbelief turns away from God:

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

a born again believer may stumble from time to time, but he or she will repent and turn back to God. In Luke 15, the Lord Jesus Christ taught about the Shepherd Who leaves the 99 to seek out the one who has wandered ... the Shepherd lays the lost one on His shoulders and carries him or her back to the fold. This is a great and precious promise Jordon.





there are various reasons a born again believer sins ...

the believer may not know that something is sin due to ignorance of Scripture ...

the believer can be drawn away through the lusts of the flesh as described in James 1 ...

the believer may resist the renewing of the mind and remain conformed to this world.

I believe God gives warning when we are straying off the path ... you know how the Holy Spirit convicts ... and when we do sin, we are to turn back to God, confess our sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive us (1 John 1:9).

One of the things I do when I go to bed at night is pray that if I have sinned in any manner during the day, I ask God to show me where I strayed and I ask God to forgive me. God is so, so good to us.





Again, I do not believe God hardens our heart.

I do believe God works within our hearts to give warning so we do not sin ... but if we do not pay heed and sin ... that is because we have been drawn away from Him.





Psalm 73:26-28

26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

God strengthens our hearts and it is good for us to draw near to God, put our trust in Him, and declare all His works.

Those who turn from God and "go a whoring" ... they turn from God to idols ... they will be destroyed if they do not turn to God when He reaches out to them before they pass away. God gives us the whole of our lifetime to turn to Him when He reaches out ... He does not hide Himself. Those who do not turn to Him in their life are the ones who rejected Him when He reached out to them.





I showed you all the places where the word sklērýnō (harden/hardened) is used (Post 26,377). Do you see a verse which indicates sklērýnō is a good thing?





Eve ate because she was deceived by satan ... she saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise (Gen 3:6).

Adam ate because he joined his wife in her fallen state.





God told Adam of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen 2:17).





In Eph 5:1 we are told to be imitators of God has His dear children.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

and who's words are you being merciful with here

And when you say to be imitators of The lord, surely there is only one lord, How do you fit that into i do no longer live but it is his life that lives in me.


I don't mean to be disrespectful but your rejecting some clear understandings.

It's clear you have a well wishing heart and I can't understand why your not seeing the light on this matter.

But no matter I'll address more soon. I'm tired and busy to fully take your good points on board right now,..

But I just can't see How can come to agreement I believe it's at least 100 points or more now we haven't found agreement on.

But still at least you've been very civil.

It's beyond me why where not finding agreement.

This is why I'm wondering has the lord hardened you to have unbelief for what I'm saying.

I just can't make sense of it m

You know the word so well.

 

[Jordon]

the heart of unbelief is the stony heart. the heart of unbelief turns away from God:

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

a born again believer may stumble from time to time, but he or she will repent and turn back to God. In Luke 15, the Lord Jesus Christ taught about the Shepherd Who leaves the 99 to seek out the one who has wandered ... the Shepherd lays the lost one on His shoulders and carries him or her back to the fold. This is a great and precious promise Jordon.





there are various reasons a born again believer sins ...

the believer may not know that something is sin due to ignorance of Scripture ...

the believer can be drawn away through the lusts of the flesh as described in James 1 ...

the believer may resist the renewing of the mind and remain conformed to this world.

I believe God gives warning when we are straying off the path ... you know how the Holy Spirit convicts ... and when we do sin, we are to turn back to God, confess our sins, and He is faithful and just to forgive us (1 John 1:9).

One of the things I do when I go to bed at night is pray that if I have sinned in any manner during the day, I ask God to show me where I strayed and I ask God to forgive me. God is so, so good to us.





Again, I do not believe God hardens our heart.

I do believe God works within our hearts to give warning so we do not sin ... but if we do not pay heed and sin ... that is because we have been drawn away from Him.





Psalm 73:26-28

26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.

27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

God strengthens our hearts and it is good for us to draw near to God, put our trust in Him, and declare all His works.

Those who turn from God and "go a whoring" ... they turn from God to idols ... they will be destroyed if they do not turn to God when He reaches out to them before they pass away. God gives us the whole of our lifetime to turn to Him when He reaches out ... He does not hide Himself. Those who do not turn to Him in their life are the ones who rejected Him when He reached out to them.





I showed you all the places where the word sklērýnō (harden/hardened) is used (Post 26,377). Do you see a verse which indicates sklērýnō is a good thing?





Eve ate because she was deceived by satan ... she saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise (Gen 3:6).

Adam ate because he joined his wife in her fallen state.





God told Adam of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen 2:17).





In Eph 5:1 we are told to be imitators of God has His dear children.

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

.

Why you can't see the lord can harden your heart to unbelief after all we have shared is totally out of grasp m

I don't know what else to say

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If God hardens a heart is he doing what he thinks is right ?

Jordon ... do you even consider what is written in response to your questions?

your question above was submitted within minutes of my reply in Post 26,377 to your Post 26,363.

did you study the Scripture provided wherein the word sklērýnō was used?

Are you ... or do you want to be ... like the Bereans? ...

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Are you interested in bringing your thoughts and beliefs into alignment with Scripture? ... or are you more interested in trying to align Scripture to your thoughts and beliefs?

you are free to treat Scripture any way you want ... but the one who is a workman who does not need to be ashamed before God is the one who rightly divides the Word of Truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Except when it is! Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God and that worked out quite well for God's rescue mission for the ancient Hebrews.

That God's Will is accomplished in spite of mankind resisting is not at issue here Rufus.

What is at issue is whether it is a good thing for mankind to resist.

the word "harden" in Romans 9:18 is translated from the Greek word sklērýnō, which means sklērýnō – to harden; become inflexible (literally "dried out"); (figuratively) obstinately stubborn, resisting what God says is right [HELPS Word-studies (bold mine)].

Here are the verses in Scripture in which the word sklērýnō is used:

Acts 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness

Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Do you still believe the hardening of the heart is a good thing, Rufus? Even as God specifically tells us "harden not your hearts"?

Do you believe it is a good thing to resist God?

I say "no, it is not a good thing for mankind to resist God's Will".

What do you say, Rufus?

.

 

[BillyBob]

But then you are saying you have free will to sin but not to do good.

We have freewill to do most everything, but spiritual things must come from God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Sounds right to me for sure.

Your scriptural analysis is right on target.

aahhh tourist ... hope/pray all is well with you and your family.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Why you can't see the lord can harden your heart to unbelief after all we have shared is totally out of grasp m

I don't know what else to say

Jordon ... I understand what you are saying ... I do not agree.

To me, it appears that you are saying God hardens the heart to unbelief in others. If I misunderstand, please let me know.

I do not want God to harden my heart to unbelief in others ... to me, that means I would not be able to discern when and where someone is not in alignment with Scripture. If I do not see that, I have no remedy to help someone who is in unbelief.

We are instructed to cast down our reasonings ... those things that exalt against the knowledge of God ... and bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

.

 

[Jordon]

Jordon ... do you even consider what is written in response to your questions?

your question above was submitted within minutes of my reply in Post 26,377 to your Post 26,363.

did you study the Scripture provided wherein the word sklērýnō was used?

Are you ... or do you want to be ... like the Bereans? ...

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Are you interested in bringing your thoughts and beliefs into alignment with Scripture? ... or are you more interested in trying to align Scripture to your thoughts and beliefs?

you are free to treat Scripture any way you want ... but the one who is a workman who does not need to be ashamed before God is the one who rightly divides the Word of Truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

.

yes I do consider, I thought you knew that already about me.

But no matter, do you think I want to get all serious with you,

After all the little things we have discussed ?

I could go on, but i do know my heart is blue m.

I know one thing only about greek and Hebrew and it's the thing I want to know.

When God introduced himself to moses he said his name was ,

I am that i am
Ehyeh Asher EHeyeh it can be pronounced Yahweh.

But my understanding from when from when I was younger is that from my mum, was I am that I am meant he can do what he wants, but I can't, meaning he has all the authority and I don't.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

and who's words are you being merciful with here

Read the verse in context ...

Luk 6:27-36

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

And when you say to be imitators of The lord, surely there is only one lord, How do you fit that into i do no longer live but it is his life that lives in me.

Who lives within you Jordon? To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27).

Who always did the will of the Father?

If the One Who always did the will of the Father lives within the believer, the believer is then able to be an imitator of God.

I don't mean to be disrespectful but your rejecting some clear understandings.

possibly ... I believe I am holding to what I know from Scripture.

It's clear you have a well wishing heart and I can't understand why your not seeing the light on this matter.

show me from Scripture where it is a good thing for God to harden someone's heart.

I showed you the verses where it appears to me the word sklērýnō as used in God hardening someone's heart is not a good thing.

But no matter I'll address more soon. I'm tired and busy to fully take your good points on board right now,..

But I just can't see How can come to agreement I believe it's at least 100 points or more now we haven't found agreement on.

But still at least you've been very civil.

It's beyond me why where not finding agreement.

This is why I'm wondering has the lord hardened you to have unbelief for what I'm saying.

I just can't make sense of it m

You know the word so well.

I think we agree on more than what you allow.

I do not believe God hardens my heart ... or your heart for that matter. We're both born again ... the Lord Jesus Christ is Lord in our lives ... we believe God raised the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead ... we're both maturing in the Lord ... none of us will reach full maturity until we see the Lord Jesus Christ face to face and we are as He is ... along the way until full maturity, we meet each other and have fellowship with each other.

.

 

[Jordon]

Jordon ... I understand what you are saying ... I do not agree.

To me, it appears that you are saying God hardens the heart to unbelief in others. If I misunderstand, please let me know.

I do not want God to harden my heart to unbelief in others ... to me, that means I would not be able to discern when and where someone is not in alignment with Scripture. If I do not see that, I have no remedy to help someone who is in unbelief.

We are instructed to cast down our reasonings ... those things that exalt against the knowledge of God ... and bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

.

and he that exalts himself will be humbled m

And if he's not humbled what then ?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Why you can't see the lord can harden your heart to unbelief after all we have shared is totally out of grasp m

I don't know what else to say

I understand what you are saying Jordon ... I do not agree that God hardens the heart of the believer. I believe God chastens the believer, but I do not believe that is the same as hardening the heart as shown in those verses I posted ... and I hope/pray that you will come to understand that God hardening the heart is not a good thing ... that chastening is not the same as hardening ... that the new heart of flesh is what God writes His Word upon. Just think about it.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

We have freewill to do most everything, but spiritual things must come from God.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

mankind can know both good and evil ... mankind's actions can result from the good he or she knows.

So if/when God reaches out to mankind, the result does not always have to be total rejection of that which is good, notwithstanding what some who have posted in this thread believe.

Also, recall that the Word of God is life (Heb 4:12) and light (Psalm 119:130) ...

1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

What are we planting or watering when we speak to others? Are we planting or watering the truth of God's Word? If so and if the hearer does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, God brings increase.

so neither he that plants or waters is anything ... the one who does not suppress the truth in unrighteousness does nothing to "earn" the increase ... God gets all the glory ... for it is His Word that brings light and life and it is God Who gives increase.

.

 

[Jordon]

show me from Scripture where it is a good thing for God to harden someone's heart.

I
.

I did but no matter

God said to his people show them no mercy Deuteronomy 7

It's ok if you can see that his people could show affection,

And then it may be better if you could see the lord has put his affection in them in Deuteronomy 7

So the lord was scared if the people he was telling to be shown no mercy where given there effection, then they would be killed.

So the lords word is alive and active and so when he said show them no mercy his word hardened there hearts to show them no mercy

Horay m, that mercy was all ready in there hearts to, as well as affection, because the lords word is alive and active.

And so when the lord say,

I will have mercy on you.

That means his word will fall upon you from heaven

Hirayyyyy m

 

[Blue155]

For those who do not believe in free will, they sure do an awful lot of posting about it lol.

 

[Blue155]

For those who do not believe in free will, they sure post an awful lot about it lol.