Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[rogerg]

I’m aware of the verses. And I still do not believe in total depravity, inability, or whatever else you want to call it. But I still believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

While I fully agree that the Word of God is the source of faith (Romans 10:17), Scripture also shows that man must choose to believe what he hears.

I said that he must believe and that it is an act of his will.

I agree that believing involves man's will, but that will must first be freed and enlightened by God in order to respond rightly. Romans 10:17 is referring to the hearing of the Scriptures themselves, for faith comes by hearing God's written Word. Yet Scripture also shows that man's natural condition prevents him from seeing truth until God acts. For example, the Lord opened Lydia's heart so she would pay attention to Paul's words (Acts 16:14). Likewise, Jesus said, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent” (John 6:29). This makes clear that genuine belief happens only after God enlightens the heart to understand His Word.

This is where I differ from your Calvinist view.

I don't have a Calvinist view.

I am glad to hear that. My difference here is simply that man's fallen nature leaves him unable to see or seek God until he is enlightened. Ephesians 2 says we are “by nature the children of wrath,” and Romans 3:11 adds, “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” The will is not forced by God, but it must first be freed from spiritual blindness before it can make a genuine choice toward the light. Men can make moral choices, but when it comes to choosing God, they are in a fallen sinful state, and they need the light of God to awaken them to properly choose.

I believe in prevenient grace, that God graciously enables and empowers the will to respond to His Word but does not override it.

I don't believe He empowers the will to respond. Man was created to respond. Responding is normal. God suppresses the flesh so the sin nature must release the mind from the captivity of its anti-God status. Then the person can respond according to what they prefer, light or dark.

I see what you mean about man being created to respond, and I agree that blindness is the issue caused by sin (2 Corinthians 4:4). But the King James Bible never describes God as suppressing the flesh. Instead, it presents His work as enlightening and opening the heart and understanding.

When Lydia believed, “the Lord opened her heart” (Acts 16:14). When the disciples finally grasped the Scriptures, “He opened their understanding” (Luke 24:45). God does not restrain the flesh temporarily. He shines light into the heart (2 Corinthians 4:6), freeing the will by illumination, not suppression (unless of course there is a verse you know of that I am missing).

The KJV teaches that the believer must crucify the affections and lusts and mortify the deeds of the body. This choice is ours to make with God's help. “They that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts” (Galatians 5:24), and we are commanded to “mortify” our members which are upon the earth (Colossians 3:5). This is not a passive suppression but an active surrender to God's truth. Romans 8:7–8 shows that “the carnal mind is enmity against God” and “cannot be subject to the law of God.” The real solution is not for God to suppress the flesh but to enlighten or enable a person so that he may freely and sincerely choose to obey Him (Acts 16:14; Luke 24:45).

It portrays faith as something solid and real, not merely an inward feeling or psychological assurance.

Agreed, which is how I know my believing, an act of my will, is not faith because I haven't always known with absolute confidence if God would keep His word. But I act as if He will (believing) because I have prior evidence (faith), and that is how the power of the word transforms my believing into faith. As the children's song goes, "faith is like a muscle, use it and it will grow." You use what you have, believing the word when you don't know, and faith grows.

I see what you are describing, but what you are actually outlining is closer to the strengthening of faith, not the creation of it. When you say, “I act as if He will (believing) because I have prior evidence (faith), and that is how the word transforms my believing into faith,” you are describing how faith matures through obedience, not how it begins.

In other words, this is a description of growth in faith, as seen in Romans 4:20 where Abraham’s faith was said to be “strong,” rather than the formation of faith itself. Faith does not begin as “believing” and later become “faith.” According to Scripture, faith starts the very moment one believes.

Romans 10:9–10 says, “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Here, believing from the heart is faith in action; it is not a lesser stage waiting to transform into faith. John 3:16 also teaches, “Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” The very act of believing is the faith that receives salvation.

Faith can certainly strengthen and deepen through obedience and experience, but it does not originate from human effort and later become divine. It begins when one truly believes God's Word, and that same faith is strengthened through continued trust and obedience. The faith God provides for us to believe in Jesus and the Bible. Our faith or belief in Christ and the Bible is ultimately up to us, although we can ask God for help to increase our faith (of course).




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[Magenta]

No apologies are necessary! I haven't been posting much lately. My wife has been doing poorly and I spend a lot of time helping her. But, please know that all who are like-minded posters lift my spirit each time I sign on.
Just knowing that God is in control of all things brings me comfort.

I am sorry to hear that your wife has been doing poorly. My goodness, aging is
not for the faint of heart, is it? I shall keep you both in my thoughts and prayers...

 

[Magenta]

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (2 Cor ch 3 v 17). If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ (Rom 8 v 9b). The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him (from John 14 v 17). Those not in Christ are not free (see Heb 2 v 15). Praise God if He has rescued you from the dominion of darkness! (see Col 1 v 13)

 

[Magenta]

Just knowing that God is in control of all things brings me comfort.

The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Isaiah 14 verse 24 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the purposes of His heart to all generations. Psalm 33 verse 11 Our God is in heaven; He does as He pleases. Psalm 115 verse 3 Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail. Proverbs 19 verse 21 In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will. Ephesians 1 verse 11 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8 verses 28-30 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1 verses 4-5

 

[Cameron143]

If it is not yours?
It's probably right then....

You lost all credibility with me when you denied the rapture and claimed Jesus has already returned to the earth.

How you believe that is your business.
But it's not the Holy Spirit's.

You just like to antagonize Christians.
Why is that?

You really do.

This is simply more poor discernment. You write antagonist replies, not me.

For the record, I did not deny the rapture. I said it occurred 1st century. I also don't believe this precludes other raptures. Were not Enoch and Elijah raptured?

 

[Blue155]

[Rom 3:10-18 KJV]
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

Thanks for the verses. I’m aware of them. And I still do not believe in total depravity, inability, or whatever else you want to call it. But I still believe in the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Magenta]

Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unto death. Romans 7 v 25, Galatians 5 v 17, Romans 7 v 18, Proverbs 20 v 9, Job 14 v 4, Romans 7 v 5 (Romans 8 v 13 and James 1 v 15)

 

[Blue155]

2 Timothy 2:16
“Shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.”


2 Timothy 2:23
“But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes

 

[Magenta]

Ephesians 2 v 1-3, 1 Peter 4 v 3b ~ You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.... living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing, and detestable idolatry.

 

[Magenta]

From Romans 6 v 19-21 You used to offer your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness when you were slaves to sin. What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death.

 

[Jordon]

God's grace empowers man by suppressing the flesh's dominance over his soul.
God even does that for you now after you are saved when you choose to walk in the Spirit by using 1 John 1:9 when needed.

In the drawing to Salvation?
God sovereignly shuts down the dominance of the flesh over the soul.
In doing so, God allows the soul to think over what ever it is that God is presenting to that soul to consider.
That soul remains free to reject God, just as Satan and his angels rejected God from an unfallen state.

When that happens by grace?
What is the soul left with when it comes to making any choice?
Its own choice.

That is why there be no excuses for anyone God draws and chose to reject God.

If God did not sovereignly apply his grace power over the flesh?
No one would believe.
For no one under the control of their flesh can believe God.

No believer who willfully rebels and chooses to continuously walk in his flesh and its desires?
God will not allow him to keep sinning.
He can not continue to sin.
For it will result in the sin onto death.
God will stop the sinning by taking that believer home early.

​

If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, ​

you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not ​

lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should ​

pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." ​

​

1 John 5:16-17​

still kicking your goad, still justifying sin,
And still putting Christians in the same league as the unsaved.

When are you going to not going to take every verse as what saved people are doing, and see them as an expression of faith ?

Or try looking at the verses. As a reaction the lord is repeating from a person being saved, when he has spoken in there hearts.

Or try looking at other verses from disciples expressing the lords faith, whom are being being saved.

Any sin has to be forgiven, Just the sin of disobedience led to death, the wages for sin are death, the wages for evil is death

A person is held a accountable for every careless word they speak which means there are no sins that are unintentional, Gods prick to conscience ensures people know before hand. And untill such a person takes notice there not saved.

And what when your saved, there is no sin that leads to death. Because saved people if they do sin will know to put it right.

Unlike those who keep wrongly accusing people, and children of God

Or keep justifying there actions.

Gods grace saves a person because he,,,

He gives them a new seed

Then once saved he stops the flesh from doing what it wants.

If the flesh is doing what it wants it not saved.

If your saved and you do sin you should get convicted and you will know to change.

On the other hand people whom have been made persistently aware of there sin don't get convicted they get prideful or condemned.

Then there actions speak louder than words.

The thought of thinking you can sin is only a sin until you actually do it.

But you've still desired to sonit still classed as sin , and these are the types of conflicts saved people battle with the aid of the spirit.


The unsaved people will carry them into action.

Not think twice, then insult deny lie about God.

Twist scripture reject what is true the spit all over his word like a dog.

 

[Jackson129]

First of all, I'm talking about the FUTURE new Eternal Order, so what does history have to do with anything?

Secondly, neither Satan or Adam were created "perfect". If they were, they would not have been able to sin! God is perfect and he cannot sin, nor can his essence change in any way, hence He's immutable! Adam was created "very good" in a state of innocence. Satan was "blameless" in his ways until wickedness was found in him. So, how did Satan and the rest of the fallen angels sin: PRIDE! Who or what tempted the fallen angels? Their sin was self-generated from within.

It's no wonder scripture teaches that God detests the proud of heart!

If you say it is self generated in the case of the angles then why would it not be able to be self generated for us when we become like the angels? God does say Satan was perfect in his ways. The anointed cherub that covererth.

 

[Rufus]

I read Calvin a long time ago... the problem with his work is that he changed his mind and contradicted his own writings, as a member here put it he used circular reasoning too.

This is from his writings,

“Now a word concerning the reprobate, with whom the apostle is at the same time there concerned. For as Jacob, deserving nothing by good works, is taken into grace, so Esau, as yet undefiled by any crime, is hated [Rom. 9:13]” (Institutes 3.22.11). “

So who knows what he really thought and what he used to serve his personal ambitions of power and control.

So, how does Rom 9:13 represent a contradiction by Calvin? Do you know what the Law of Contradiction is?

 

[Magenta]

So, how does Rom 9:13 represent a contradiction by Calvin? Do you know what the Law of Contradiction is?

She contradicts herself and Scripture an awful lot, but will not admit it...

 

[Magenta]

Any sin has to be forgiven, Just the sin of disobedience led to death, the wages for sin are death, the wages for evil is death

Romans 6 v 23~ The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Jackson129]

So, how does Rom 9:13 represent a contradiction by Calvin? Do you know what the Law of Contradiction is?

I thought the phrase loved one and hated the other was an idiom. A phrase used to describe a precieved or real difference on a situation. For instance if a father had 2 sons and gave one 90% of the inheritance and the other 10% it was said he loved one and hated the other. It didnt mean he actually hated the other child.

 

[Rufus]

If you say it is self generated in the case of the angles then why would it not be able to be self generated for us when we become like the angels? God does say Satan was perfect in his ways. The anointed cherub that covererth.

Logically speaking, neither Satan or Adam were perfect because whatever is perfect cannot change; for any change whatsoever would have to be for the better or worse, proving that the entity was never perfect to begin with.

It becomes "self-generated" for us when we receive our supernaturally-created resurrected bodies, and this actually lends some credence also to Genez's theory (with which I concur but am not dogmatic) that the sin nature was passed on to the human race by Adam's and all his male progeny's sperm. What the creation is eagerly waiting is the final phase of the saints' salvation, i.e. redemption of our bodies which, of course, occurs at the resurrection (Rom 8:18-25).

 

[Magenta]

Logically speaking, neither Satan or Adam were perfect because whatever is perfect cannot change; for any change
whatsoever would have to be for the better or worse, proving that the entity was never perfect to begin with.

It becomes "self-generated" for us when we receive our supernaturally-created resurrected bodies, and this actually
lends some credence also to Genez's theory (with which I concur but am not dogmatic) that the sin nature was passed
on to the human race by Adam's and all his male progeny's sperm. What the creation is eagerly waiting is the final phase
of the saints' salvation, i.e. redemption of our bodies which, of course, occurs at the resurrection (Rom 8:18-25).

From 1 Corinthians 15 v 50-54 Brothers and sisters, I declare to you that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

 

[Rufus]

I thought the phrase loved one and hated the other was an idiom. A phrase used to describe a precieved or real difference on a situation. For instance if a father had 2 sons and gave one 90% of the inheritance and the other 10% it was said he loved one and hated the other. It didnt mean he actually hated the other child.

But what constituted the "situation" that accounts for two very different responses of God -- especially since whatever the "situation" was, was not found in either of the twins themselves, since God determined their destinies in eternity before either one of them had done anything good or bad?