Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

oops hopefully sorry @Magenta

No worries, Jordon, I knew what you meant .

 

[Genez]

He was speaking to his chosen people he had nurtured since youth, and he was talking to them not to demons, and you still will not correct what you've wrote, despite being shown clear authoritative, correction.

Which means sir your twisting scripture to suit yourself, you can't keep blaming demons for the evil men do,

It looks like like this is what your doing to me.

The Jews were doing such great evils in Jeremiah's day, that God destroyed their nation!

You have no idea.

They were making idols for performing pagan ritual sex orgies in what was called in the Bible, 'the high places.'

In the field they had a furnace/idol with fire inside. While they were performing all kinds of sexual sins in a field
some would throw their children alive into flames.

The screams of the children aroused them even more.

There were also idols made in the form of the male phallus for women to use for auto-eroticism while
others in the orgy performed all kinds of (use your imagination).

You have no idea how evil they were.

 

[Jordon]

The Jews were doing such great evils in Jeremiah's day, that God destroyed their nation!

You have no idea.

They were making idols for performing pagan ritual sex orgies in what was called in the Bible, 'the high places.'

In the field they had a furnace/idol with fire inside. While they were performing all kinds of sexual sins in a field
some would throw their children alive into flames.

The screams of the children aroused them even more.

There were also idols made in the form of the male phallus for women to use for auto-eroticism while
others in the orgy performed all kinds of (use your imagination).

You have no idea how evil they were.

im clueless in your book.
Well I've been raised by my intelligence parents and sound doctrine, so whist you think you can put me in a box, my little box has its lid open, unlike yours that can't amit your error,

The commandment do not commit idolatry, is that actually sin in your book if you do it ,

But if your led by satan to do it thats evil, is this what your saying.

Coz you make no sense what so ever, and the fact that your now saying I have no idea what evil is it just shows how incredibly ridiculous you are

Your all about yourself sir

 

[Jackson129]

For pitys sake man @Cameron143 is the LAST person on earth with whom you would consult on matters of eschatology.

He is by far the most Biblically illiterate individual on this board regarding such matters. Not to mention literally 100% wrong 100% of the time as regards eschatology. Dude is a hopeless case.

And DEFINITELY yes, the NEAR FUTURE pre-trib rapture, 7 year trib, millennial reign is absolutely boilerplate Biblical doctrine.

The alternative views are preposterous and effortlessly disproven.

Im was simply asking why he thinks what he thinks. Dosent mean Im gonna believe what he thinks. There is nothing I have in common with that view. But I still like to hear why people think what they do.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Choices do not prove free will. Man has volition but that does not prove it is free. That you say it does proves
you conflate having a choice with having a will that is free even against a plethora of Scriptures that say
otherwise. You have put a philosophical construct before the Truth explicitly articulated in Scripture.

Part of the problem is that people think that making choices equates to the will being free. They say such things as, if the will is not free, then people are puppets. This is a logical fallacy. Making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, or what book to choose out of the mountains of them available, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing those things in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.

This is the crux of the conversation, such as it is, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend while in the flesh as are all before becoming indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot, that flesh cannot please God, that flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death, not life. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit... there are none good, no, not one! Even when asked who can be saved, Jesus said that with man it was impossible, and there are other places where we are explicitly told it is not by the will of the flesh or man but by God's will that any are saved. Some philosophers and philosophy books have said man has a will that is free and that is enough for many to parrot what they hear and throw over a slew of Scriptural truths. They ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man.

Gobsmacked by your really brilliant comment, kudos! Here are two pdfs about the very possible/likely influence the independent brain of the heart has on our thinking and decision making processes.

We truly are wondrously designed and made and i'm certain we only have an inkling of our real potential currently:

The Heart, Mind and Spirit [2007] https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/defa...e-heart-mind-and-spirit.pdf?sfvrsn=47fea910_2

Clinical potential of sensory neurites in the heart and their role in decision-making [2024] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10896837/pdf/fnins-17-1308232.pdf

 

[LifelongLearner]

im clueless in your book.
Well I've been raised by my intelligence parents and sound doctrine, so whist you think you can put me in a box, my little box has its lid open, unlike yours that can't amit your error,

The commandment do not commit idolatry, is that actually sin in your book if you do it ,

But if your led by satan to do it thats evil, is this what your saying.

Coz you make no sense what so ever, and the fact that your now saying I have no idea what evil is it just shows how incredibly ridiculous you are

Your all about yourself sir

Bless you friend, however, trolls want to derail intelligent, spiritual discussion and upset/sadden others, for fun, often malice etc. Think calling them out as trolls has its uses, however, trying to reason with them is pointless. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Bless you friend, however, trolls want to derail intelligent, spiritual discussion and upset/sadden others, for fun, often malice etc. Think calling them out as trolls has its uses, however, trying to reason with them is pointless. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Oh dear sawdust dislikes my post. Which is good, their approval is what would worry me.

 

[HeIsHere]

Keep in mind that many Christians at the time of history when TULIP was formulated had been engulfed (as a norm) with terrible teachings from the Catholic Church.

So, when an alternative was devised (TULIP)? No one at that point had developed enough Biblical skills to know Bible doctrine well enough to see the problems with TULIP.

It became a preferred system for many after having lived under the horrible teachings of the RCC.

Luther was one who did a frontal assault on the fables of the RCC.

Yes, agree to some extent, but it is well documented that John Calvin studied the writings of Augustine and was heavily influenced by his ideas.

 

[cv5]

Im was simply asking why he thinks what he thinks. Dosent mean Im gonna believe what he thinks. There is nothing I have in common with that view. But I still like to hear why people think what they do.

OK thanks. As for the notorious Reformed "preterist" view of eschatology, it is rubbish fit for the dumpster.
This itty bitty compilation of passages is sufficient to dismantle every preterist view that there ever was.

Exo 17:6
“Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.” And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Num 20:8
“Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.”

Hos 5:14
For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
Hos 5:15
I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Hos 6:1
Come, and let us return to the LORD;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
Hos 6:2
After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

Luk 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The verse Luke 13:35 includes the phrase "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord," which is a direct quotation from Psalm 118:26 in the Old Testament.

"Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord."​

This psalm is part of the Hallel (Psalms 113–118), traditionally recited during Jewish festivals, and the phrase is a messianic reference often associated with Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem (e.g., in Matthew 21:9 and Mark 11:9). In the context of Luke 13:35, Jesus uses it to speak of a future time when He will be recognized and welcomed, likely pointing to His second coming.

 

[HeIsHere]

One becomes conscious/aware of his Faith at the point of the New Birth -- not before. Doesn't a newborn infant become aware of the world around him after he's born? Likewise, believers become aware of God and his grace and their desperate need for both at the point of the New Birth. So...while a new believer was actually a member of God's family and a possessor of eternal life in eternity by divine decree, he only becomes conscious of his transformed heart and his relationship with his Creator/Redeemer when he's born from above in time and space.

Non-Calvinist: “I believe in John 5:40 that we have to come to Christ to have life.”

Calvinist: “How do you square that with Ephesians 2 where we see that God makes us alive with Christ?”

Non-Calvinist: Visible confusion.

If we must be regenerated (made alive) before we come to Christ then this makes the statement by Christ Jesus about coming to Him to have life nonsensical.

This argument is deeply flawed and goes against Jesus’ own words on the matter.

 

[Jordon]

Bless you friend, however, trolls want to derail intelligent, spiritual discussion and upset/sadden others, for fun, often malice etc. Think calling them out as trolls has its uses, however, trying to reason with them is pointless. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

they also hide waiting for calvinists to pass

 

[HeIsHere]

"Faith comes after being saved” is a logical entailment of Calvinism and is completely unbiblical.

 

[Jordon]

Munch munch yummy Calvinists for lunch

 

[Jordon]

OK thanks. As for the notorious Reformed "preterist" view of eschatology, it is rubbish fit for the dumpster.
This itty bitty compilation of passages is sufficient to dismantle every preterist view that there ever was.

Exo 17:6
“Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock in Horeb; and you shall strike the rock, and water will come out of it, that the people may drink.” And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

Num 20:8
“Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.”

Hos 5:14
For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
Hos 5:15
I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.”

Hos 6:1
Come, and let us return to the LORD;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
Hos 6:2
After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

Luk 13:35
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The verse Luke 13:35 includes the phrase "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord," which is a direct quotation from Psalm 118:26 in the Old Testament.

"Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord."​

This psalm is part of the Hallel (Psalms 113–118), traditionally recited during Jewish festivals, and the phrase is a messianic reference often associated with Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem (e.g., in Matthew 21:9 and Mark 11:9). In the context of Luke 13:35, Jesus uses it to speak of a future time when He will be recognized and welcomed, likely pointing to His second coming.

theres only modern day Israelites now m, the judeans must of been raptured

 

[HeIsHere]

Wait a darn minute here! Just got that all wrong! You mean no sinner can freely choose by himself to know God? Jesus has to do a supernatural work in His chosen sheep in order for us to know God? Wow! Who woulda thunk, especially since a true knowledge of God is a precursor to faith since the Christian Faith is rational in nature?

So very flawed by assuming regeneration isn’t eternal (which it is)

and another flawed assumption is that.....

the biblical authors had two separate ways to describe the "new life" which is given to His people

one which causes faith and the other which is a result of faith—something the Bible NEVER explicitly or even implicitly teaches.

You guys go on and on about free will and a very poorly understood view of God's sovereignty, as a side show, when you have so many real exegetical errors which are never addressed.

 

[LifelongLearner]

they also hide waiting for calvinists to pass

i know! it's as feasible as the imaginary *reds-under-the-beds* stupidity of the '60s. However, many really believed the big bad Commies were out to get them back then, with this lot it's any excuse to troll.

 

[Jordon]

Non-Calvinist: “I believe in John 5:40 that we have to come to Christ to have life.”

Calvinist: “How do you square that with Ephesians 2 where we see that God makes us alive with Christ?”

Non-Calvinist: Visible confusion.

If we must be regenerated (made alive) before we come to Christ then this makes the statement by Christ Jesus about coming to Him to have life nonsensical.

This argument is deeply flawed and goes against Jesus’ own words on the matter.

A better word for regeneration is called quickened m

 

[Jordon]

Non-Calvinist: “I believe in John 5:40 that we have to come to Christ to have life.”

Calvinist: “How do you square that with Ephesians 2 where we see that God makes us alive with Christ?”

Non-Calvinist: Visible confusion.

If we must be regenerated (made alive) before we come to Christ then this makes the statement by Christ Jesus about coming to Him to have life nonsensical.

This argument is deeply flawed and goes against Jesus’ own words on the matter.

none believerw don't recognise that Godly sorrow equals quickening that leads to repentance that leads to salvation.

But they also leave the part out about the lord believing them and they only include there believing

 

[Magenta]

So very flawed by assuming regeneration isn’t eternal (which it is)

Where was that assumption? Also, where is your response to, knowing God is only via Jesus' choice to reveal Him?

Your response had zero to do with the post you quoted...

Too funny you lecturing about God's sovereignty though...

Since you hate it so much you blaspheme Him over it.

 

[Gv12]

Choices do not prove free will. Man has volition but that does not prove it is free. That you say it does proves
you conflate having a choice with having a will that is free even against a plethora of Scriptures that say
otherwise. You have put a philosophical construct before the Truth explicitly articulated in Scripture.

Part of the problem is that people think that making choices equates to the will being free. They say such things as, if the will is not free, then people are puppets. This is a logical fallacy. Making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, or what book to choose out of the mountains of them available, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing those things in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.

This is the crux of the conversation, such as it is, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend while in the flesh as are all before becoming indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot, that flesh cannot please God, that flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death, not life. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit... there are none good, no, not one! Even when asked who can be saved, Jesus said that with man it was impossible, and there are other places where we are explicitly told it is not by the will of the flesh or man but by God's will that any are saved. Some philosophers and philosophy books have said man has a will that is free and that is enough for many to parrot what they hear and throw over a slew of Scriptural truths. They ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man.

My question is if you dont believe in free will.
What do you believe about :

Matthew 6:19 Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal.
Do you think some people have more rewards waiting for them, or do you think its already decided how much tressure awaits before we become a Christian?

Luke 9:23: "Then he said to them all: 'Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me'"
Do you think that we have to discipline ourselves and it takes constant work denying our flesh daily ? Or Do you believe if someone fails at doing the things we know we ought to do that Jesus instructed us, that its not their fault and was out of their control.

Or do you believe it is our fault completely for the sins we commit?
I personally believe that all my sins are my fault, and Jesus being perfect the sacrifice is the reason I can be forgiven of those sins. I also believe that we have the ability to be faithful servants like in the parable of the talents or be like the unfaithful servant and we will be rewarded in the end to how faithful we were.

Whats your view how free will is taken in consideration here
Thanks in advance.