Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Rufus said:
What about v. 11? What do you think is going on there?
Click to expand...
My take on 2Thesalonians 2:11-12 would be as follows:
If God sends a strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, and then condemn them for not believing the truth, then who are we to accuse Him of wrong doing? And, if He can allow unbelief to happen, can He not also prevent it from happening as indicated in 2Thesalonians 2:13-15. . .
 
Jordon said:
they had already received Judgment for rejecting him

There being given the mark of beast
Click to expand...

But it appears that God makes (forces?) them to believe the lie so that they will continue to believe it. And the reason behind the delusion God sends is so that these wicked people will be condemned (v.12).
 
Genez said:
You are a dismal failure in showing how that is so.
Click to expand...

In your theology your god is as dismal, pathetic failure; for allegedly he bestows grace upon all men w/o exceptiuon but only a very small percentage actually repent and believe. This makes your god a genuine strikeout artist. Conversely, the God of divine revelation actually saves ALL his elect without fail, giving him a 1.000 batting average. After all, what moves God to save anyone at all is his love -- and love never fails (1Cor 13:8); but you cannot make that claim with your god. Your god's love is as anemic as your idol is.
 
Genez said:
That is not answering my question.

OK, then...

What took place when you received your new heart?
Click to expand...

For starters, faith started its work through the love that God poured out in my heart abundantly (Rom 5:5; 1Tim 1:14; Gal 5:6).

Now that I answered your question, I'm still waiting for you to answer one of mine which you have continually ducked: If God plays favorites with his efficacious grace that he bestows upon his elect, then what would the basis be for such favoritism since every human being is a sinner?
 
Rufus said:
But it appears that God makes (forces?) them to believe the lie so that they will continue to believe it. And the reason behind the delusion God sends is so that these wicked people will be condemned (v.12).
Click to expand...
im sure it's related to end time prophesy I've not studied it for a while

Some people receive a good sign on there forehead

Saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”

Other people don't

Bad people who reject his ways receive the mark of the beast on there head or hand.

It's same as God handing them over to reprobate mind in my view,

It can also be that children of God don't believe the lie in those days and to show the ones who do, as the rapture could also be, that we are here during the great tribulation, and it identifies the people who believe the lie and those who dont.

As further to his judgement of people rejecting the lords ways what people says God allows, which in my view he doesn't, God lets satan lose on those people for a while.

So it could be that way now to, because people believe all sorts.
Satan deludes them now, and they believe him not God.
 
Cameron143 said:
Easy enough to Google. That's ex

It's not either. It's as simple as Googleing.
Click to expand...

Google what? What's not either?

I showed you scripture whereby people experience God, in that case His wrath, they know it is Him yet they do not have epignosis. Ergo, epignosis is more than experience.

Are you telling us to take the word of Google over and above the word of God? o_O:eek:
 
Cameron143 said:
One is active tense; one is passive tense. In the first, the individual performs the action. In the second, the action is performed by God.
Click to expand...

They are not Cameron. Go look at the Greek. They are the exact same tense.

You are making stuff up. You also never showed your Greek credentials so I must assume you have none.
 
Bible_Highlighter said:
John Calvin laid the groundwork. The heart of this theological system comes directly from John Calvin himself. While Calvin drew deeply from Augustine’s emphasis on the sovereignty and grace of God, he shaped a distinct and influential teaching on salvation. In Calvin’s writings, we already find the major doctrines later associated with Calvinism: the deep moral inability of fallen man, God’s unconditional choice to save, a redemption designed for the elect, the effective drawing of God that brings sinners to faith, and the perseverance of those truly born again. These core ideas were present from the beginning, even though Calvin never arranged them into the later TULIP format or listed them as five points.

After Calvin’s death, Theodore Beza continued to carry forward and better articulate the same doctrines with greater clarity and detailed reasoning, strengthening the theological structure already laid down by Calvin. In his works, the themes that would one day be summarized as TULIP appear with strong definition. Yet Beza likewise did not create the TULIP acronym or publish a tidy five-point summary.

The familiar five-point expression did not arise until the Synod of Dort in 1618–1619, when Reformed leaders needed a concise response to the five points raised by the Arminian Remonstrants. Dort did not invent new theology. It simply organized existing Reformed teaching into a clear and memorable response that later came to be known as TULIP.



....
Click to expand...

An interesting understanding of of Jeremiah 17:9, I learned years ago from my pastor who was able to teach masterfully from the Hebrew and Greek texts. Pastors ordered his recorded messages for their personal study.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"​


The passage hardly ever gets analyzed in it's proper context for why it was said.

That was stated concerning the rebellious Jews who were in an utterly self destruct mode.
Jeremiah was dealing with a totally deranged people.
A people that had degenerated into a culture of great evil.

For the Jews in his day were holding public orgies, which included phallic statues on display for female masturbation, and a burning furnace for child sacrifice while the orgies took place..

Thus... While pointing to the people? God through Jeremiah, was actually saying.

"The deceitful heart above all things is desperately wicked; who can know it?"​

What we see bantered around today with Jeremiah 17:9, was not some generalized open statement being made in reference to all men. .

It was pertaining specifically about the rebellious Jews whom God was about to destroy.
In spite of it all? Jeremiah loved his people. That is what he was called "the weeping prophet."

I am now thinking of reordering that Jeremiah series to brush up.

It was specific!

"The deceitful heart above all things is desperately wicked; who can know it?"​
​
God will provide for our every need.
 
Genez said:
An interesting understanding of of Jeremiah 17:9, I learned years ago from my pastor who was able to teach masterfully from the Hebrew and Greek texts. Pastors ordered his recorded messages for their personal study.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?"​


The passage hardly ever gets analyzed in it's proper context for why it was said.

That was stated concerning the rebellious Jews who were in an utterly self destruct mode.
Jeremiah was dealing with a totally deranged people.
A people that had degenerated into a culture of great evil.

For the Jews in his day were holding public orgies, which included phallic statues on display for female masturbation, and a burning furnace for child sacrifice while the orgies took place..

Thus... While pointing to the people? God through Jeremiah, was actually saying.

"The deceitful heart above all things is desperately wicked; who can know it?"​

What we see bantered around today was not some generalized open statement made in reference to all men. .
It was pertaining specifically about the rebellious Jews who God was about to destroy.
In spite of it all. Jeremiah loved his people. That is what he was called "the weeping prophet."

I am now thinking of reordering that Jeremiah series to brush up.

It was specific!

"The deceitful heart above all things is desperately wicked; who can know it?"​
​
God will provide for our every need.
Click to expand...
it's only specific to you making a doctrine from one sentence

Make one from this Jew or gentile God has made no distinction
 
Rufus said:
In your theology your god is as dismal, pathetic failure; for allegedly he bestows grace upon all men w/o exceptiuon but only a very small percentage actually repent and believe. This makes your god a genuine strikeout artist. Conversely, the God of divine revelation actually saves ALL his elect without fail, giving him a 1.000 batting average. After all, what moves God to save anyone at all is his love -- and love never fails (1Cor 13:8); but you cannot make that claim with your god. Your god's love is as anemic as your idol is.
Click to expand...

Hey, kid.

I am going to tell your parents about you.
 
sawdust said:
Google what? What's not either?

I showed you scripture whereby people experience God, in that case His wrath, they know it is Him yet they do not have epignosis. Ergo, epignosis is more than experience.

Are you telling us to take the word of Google over and above the word of God? o_O:eek:
Click to expand...
you'll be telling us you don't use Google next
 
Jordon said:
I told you the other day I've changed my mind about isms being permitted in Christianity because Evangelism and anglicism is allowed how do you know John Calvin wasn't practicing both 😁
Click to expand...

“Ism” is simply a small piece of language that helps us talk about a whole system of ideas in one word. In science, we rely on it to explain things like magnetism and organism classification. History and society would be impossible to describe without words like patriotism or abolitionism. Philosophy uses it constantly for theism, atheism, and humanism. Art movements are grouped under impressionism, realism, and classicism. Even the church cannot escape it. We talk about monotheism for belief in one God, evangelism for sharing the gospel, and baptism which literally ends with “ism.” If a person tries to throw out every “ism,” they end up removing evangelism itself and the belief in one God. Nobody wants that. The suffix does not create a belief, it simply helps everyone know which belief you are referring to. Without it, conversations would become long, confusing, and honestly quite silly.

As for Evangelism and John Calvin: Well, unless someone is talking about the extreme form known as High Calvinism, most Calvinists do believe in spreading the gospel. They preach Christ and call sinners to repent. That reality does not cancel out the doctrines of Calvinism in any way. Evangelism is about delivering the invitation to believe. Calvinism is about the belief that God only enables that invitation to matter for a select group He predestined. So yes, Calvin and those who follow his teachings evangelize, but it does not erase the underlying theology that places all responsibility on God and removes real human choice. Doing something Christ commanded does not automatically make one’s theology biblical.

It is not wrong to admire the passion Calvinists show when they proclaim Christ. The problem is that their system ultimately removes any real choice from the individual. Scripture repeatedly puts responsibility on the person to receive the truth. Calvinism shifts that responsibility entirely onto God. As much as Calvinists try to make evangelism fit into their theology, their own doctrinal foundation makes the gospel invitation feel more like a performance than a real offer. It creates a mixed message that the Bible never teaches. God calls all, yet Calvinism says only a preselected few can answer. That is not good news for the world. It is a locked door disguised as an open one.

As for Anglicanism and Joh Calvin: Well, John Calvin did not believe in Anglicanism or participate in its structure. On the contrary, what influence he did have went in the other direction. His teachings helped shape certain early theological developments within what later became known as Anglicanism. His emphasis on the authority of Scripture and on elements of predestination were respected by many English reformers, and some of these ideas appear in early Anglican doctrinal formulations such as the Thirty-Nine Articles. Yet Calvin’s role in the English church was limited. The Church of England retained its episcopal hierarchy, its traditional liturgy, and its self-conscious identity as a middle way between Rome and the continental Reformed churches. So while Calvin helped shape certain doctrinal contours in England, Anglicanism never adopted Calvin’s theological system fully. It certainly never transformed into Calvinism, even though there are still some Anglican Reformed churches today.



....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back