Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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HeIsHere said:
Beza used Calvin's ideas and systematized it, because Calvin just rambled mostly but the concepts were there upon which to build the system.

Total Depravity (T)

  • Calvin taught that humanity is "utterly helpless" and has no "free will" to choose God due to sin.
  • He believed the "natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel".

Unconditional Election (U)

  • Calvin's writings state that God chose certain individuals for salvation before creation, "not based on any merit in them, but solely on His will".
  • Salvation depends on God's choice, not on human choice, as humanity is naturally disobedient.

Limited Atonement (L)

  • Christ's death was intended to "secure their salvation" for the elect, not merely to make salvation "possible for anyone who believes," according to Calvin.
  • His work was a "definite atonement for the elect," not a general one for the whole world.

Irresistible Grace (I)

  • Calvin taught that God's call to salvation is effective and "cannot be refused by the elect".
  • God "regenerates them and grants them the faith to believe," overcoming any resistance.
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FWers must secretly agree with TULIP. Otherwise, they would not spend so much time discussing the acronym. After all, I'm reformed and I don't know it as well as they do. :rolleyes:
 
cv5 said:
Eeerrrr.....

Exodus chapters 32, 33 ???
And most of Numbers from chapters 11 onwards....🥲😳

Oh yes, lest we forget, there is there is recalcitrant Chorazin and Bethsaida....🤕
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funny I always thought exodus was about God putting his living fear into people ?

Are you going to explain or just quote a number ?
 
BillyBob said:
FWers must secretly agree with TULIP. Otherwise, they would not spend so much time discussing the acronym. After all, I'm reformed and I don't know it as well as they do. :rolleyes:
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That might be the problem.

There are other churches that teach the true "doctrines of grace."
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
You're such a charming person!
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Why don't you say what you mean? Oh, wait, you are one of those who loves your logical fallacies. Do you
find your logical fallacies charming, or even convincing in any way? Do you think others miss the fact that
you use logical fallacies as a matter of course, as if doing so lent some validity to what you are saying?
 
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Bible_Highlighter said:
I hear you saying that God does not love every person and that He never desired all to be saved. My friend, that is not what Scripture shows us at all.

God’s universal love and desire to save all people:


1 Timothy 2:3–4
“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”


2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”


John 3:16
“For God so loved the world…”
Jesus did not say “the elect.” The same word “world” is used just two verses later where Jesus contrasts believers and unbelievers. The world includes unbelievers.


Romans 5:18
“By the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”


Titus 2:11
“The grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men.”


God’s love and provision is universal. The gift is for all. The deciding factor is whether a person receives it.


Isaiah 5:3–4
“What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it?”
God literally asks what else He could have done. That makes no sense if God predetermined that most people would remain lost.


Your claim that Calvinism “makes good sense” only works if God has no true love for most humans, no desire for their salvation, and no genuine sorrow over their refusal to believe. Yet Jesus Himself wept over people who rejected Him.


Luke 19:41–42
“He beheld the city, and wept over it… thou knewest not the things which belong unto thy peace!”


Jesus desired their peace and reconciliation. They refused it. This is not a depiction of a God who eternally withheld saving grace from them.


The Logical Problem


You claim God could regenerate anyone at any moment without their cooperation and that this alone brings belief. If that were true, then every lost soul is lost only because God chose not to save them. This makes unbelief God’s choice, not theirs.


That leads to a problem no one should ignore:


• God commands everyone everywhere to repent
• God punishes them eternally for not doing what He refuses to enable them to do


Even human justice is more consistent than that. We don’t imprison a paralyzed man for failing to run a marathon.


Jesus explicitly refutes your point:


John 5:40
“You will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
He did not say “You cannot come because I never regenerated you.” He placed responsibility on their refusal, not on a secret decree.


Your statement: “God does not lock out those who desire to enter.”
Jesus says otherwise:


Luke 13:34
“How often would I have gathered thy children together…but ye would not!”


They would not enter. They desired their own way. The barrier is the will of man resisting God’s gracious call.


You are suggesting that Calvinism honors God’s holiness and goodness. Yet Calvinism demands you deny:


• God’s love for all humanity
• God’s stated desire for all to repent
• Human accountability rooted in genuine ability to respond
• The sincerity of God’s universal invitations to salvation
• The tears of Christ over the lost as real expressions of His heart


Calvinism collapses either on Scripture or on basic moral reason. It forces a view where God creates billions of souls, withholds the only possible means of salvation from them, and then punishes them eternally for fulfilling His decree. That is not holiness. That is not justice. That is not the heart of Jesus who died for the sins of the world.


I say this respectfully. If your theology requires you to shrink God’s love until it fits your system, it is time to question the system.

…..
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Now all you have to do is reconcile your "proof texts" with these: Lev 26:30; Deut 25:16; Job 12:21-22; Ps 5:5-6; 11:5; 15:1-5; 31:6; 45:7; 73:18-20; 95:10-11; 101:3; Prov 3:32; 6:16-19; 11:20; 2Chron 19:2; Isa 41:22-24; Jer 12:8; Lam 2:6-7; Hos 9:15; Nah 1:14; Dan 12:2; Rom 9:13.

And these: Jn 10:17; 14:21; 15:9-10; 16:27 which also speak to the conditional nature of God's love.

You don't seem to understand that God's love is first and foremost moral in nature -- a virtue that can only hate (with a holy hatred) what is evil, which includes man's heart. Check out Prov 11:1 that teaches God's hatred for sin and then 11:20 that teaches God's hatred for those with perverse hearts. And the same key Heb word "towebah" (Strong's 8441) is used in both verses that are rendered "abhor" or "detests" or "abomination" in both verses, depending upon translation.
 
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Rufus said:
Now all you have to do is reconcile your "proof texts" with these: Lev 26:30; Deut 25:16; Job 12:21-22; Ps 5:5-6; 11:5; 15:1-5; 31:6; 45:7; 73:18-20; 95:10-11; 101:3; Prov 3:32; 6:16-19; 11:20; 2Chron 19:2; Isa 41:22-24; Jer 12:8; Lam 2:6-7; Hos 9:15; Nah 1:14; Dan 12:2; Rom 9:13.

And these: Jn 10:17; 14:21; 15:9-10; 16:27 which also speak to the conditional nature of God's love.

You don't seem to understand that God's love is first and foremost moral in nature -- a virtue that can only hate (with a holy hatred) what is evil, which includes man's heart. Check out Prov 11:1 that teaches God's hatred for sin and then 11:20 that teaches God's hatred for those with perverse hearts. And the same key Heb word "towebah" (Strong's 8441) is used in both verses that are rendered "abhor" or "detests" or "abomination" in both verses, depending upon translation.
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I wonder could he deny all 20 scriptures 😭
 
Bible_Highlighter said:
Beza, Calvin's close successor, played a key role in systematizing and clarifying Reformed doctrines, especially predestination. His strong emphasis on divine sovereignty, election, and particular atonement did influence later Reformed theology and intensified debates with Arminian thinkers—including his own student, Jacob Arminius. Beza is associated with the development of “supralapsarianism” and contributed substantially to the discussions that fueled the five points of Calvinism, but he did not invent the TULIP acronym or system.
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Supralapsarianism is a theological view in Reformed Christianity that posits God's decrees of election and reprobation logically preceded the decree of the fall of man. This perspective emphasizes God's sovereignty in determining who will be saved and who will be condemned before the creation of the world.

Careful detail needed.
...
God did not determine who will be saved and determine who would be condemned.

Rather...

He was ABLE to determine in his omniscience would be the ones to believe and who would not.
And, from there. Work everyone into his plan for His glory.

But, there is a big problem:

Unless we understand that the Son has the capacity to deny Himself his right to omniscience, as clearly demonstrated in the Incarnation. We would be stuck to think that God created unbelievers to not believe.

Solution?

God the Father delegated all creation to His Son. Colossians 1:16-17

Why through the Son?
For the Son demonstrated that he can deny Himself His powers of Omniscience. Philippians 2:6-8

And, when it that state?
Create all souls and angels with only one thing in mind.
Create them wanting them to love the Father as He loves the Father.

Once The Son had created them in His mind?
The Father granted the power for them to come into existence.
Jesus then returned to His full glory and was immediately able to see who would believe, and who would freely not believe.

In that way?
Jesus was able to not tamper with the volition of those whom He created while creating them!

To me that makes sense of the mess we are confronted with.

grace and peace ....
 
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Genez said:
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3


Calvinism's TULIP was created by Theodore Beza and some disciples of Calvin, not by Calvin.

It was their independence stand against tyrannical Rome. Many believers were ignorant doctrinally back then, thanks to the Vatican's propaganda machine.

So? In such a vacuum? There was a freedom to create one's own counter to Rome's religion, and a call for separation.

Calvinism became like a magnet to will draw in those who found themselves drawn to its attitude towards God and man.

The solution? The Holy Spirit will always have a faithful remnant for wanting divine viewpoint.

grace and peace ............
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Since the largest majority soteriological view by far in the Church is Arminianism or Pelagianism, you should pay better attention to what Paul told Timothy. Thankfully, the Truth is not quantitatively determined by a show of hands. The Church today, especially here in the West, is up to its armpits in false teachers that the Church has amassed to herself to have her ears tickled.
 
Rufus said:
Now all you have to do is reconcile your "proof texts" with these: Lev 26:30; Deut 25:16; Job 12:21-22; Ps 5:5-6; 11:5; 15:1-5; 31:6; 45:7; 73:18-20; 95:10-11; 101:3; Prov 3:32; 6:16-19; 11:20; 2Chron 19:2; Isa 41:22-24; Jer 12:8; Lam 2:6-7; Hos 9:15; Nah 1:14; Dan 12:2; Rom 9:13.

And these: Jn 10:17; 14:21; 15:9-10; 16:27 which also speak to the conditional nature of God's love.

You don't seem to understand that God's love is first and foremost moral in nature -- a virtue that can only hate (with a holy hatred) what is evil, which includes man's heart. Check out Prov 11:1 that teaches God's hatred for sin and then 11:20 that teaches God's hatred for those with perverse hearts. And the same key Heb word "towebah" (Strong's 8441) is used in both verses that are rendered "abhor" or "detests" or "abomination" in both verses, depending upon translation.
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Jordon said:
I wonder could he deny all 20 scriptures 😭
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Godhateswickedpeople.png

God hates wicked people. “The LORD tests the righteous, but His soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.” (Psalm 11 v 5) He hates wicked people and detests their ways (Proverbs 1 v 9), their thoughts (Proverbs 15 v 26), their worship (Proverbs 15 v 8), their actions (Proverbs 6 v 16-19), all who do wrong/workers of iniquity (Psalm 5 v 5). He destroys those who tell lies and abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit (Psalm 5 v 6). He singles out as a special object of His hatred the blasphemous deeds of the Nicolaitans, those who seduced God’s people with idolatry and sexual immorality. “Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.” (Revelation 2 v 6)
 
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Jordon said:
funny I always thought exodus was about God putting his living fear into people ?

Are you going to explain or just quote a number ?
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It is certainly about God saving people against their resistance to His help. Sounds familiar.

Of course it would not sound familiar to those who say people need no help from God.
 
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HeIsHere said:
Another stain on Christianity. :(

Yes and there are many web sites like the Ligioners which work hard at casting him in the best possible light, is that even possible ....hmm?
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Casting his teachings into the dumpster would be a far better use of time and effort.
 
HeIsHere said:
That might be the problem.

There are other churches that teach the true "doctrines of grace."
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You mean those churches that present God as a total, impotent, dismal failure who is the universe's strikeout artist?
 
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