Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

The verse does not say God gave them anything, unlike Galatians 4:9 where both are present.

While I appreciate the discussion, I disagree with your understanding for the reasons given.

Grace and peace.

You are wrongly comparing the drawing of God to the working of God in those who are regenerate.

God is active in both.
But, not in the same ways.

God has to work in the mind of the unregenerate as to produce a concept of God to think with.
God gives them that concept.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

My understanding is they still freely choose God but two things must happen first.
1. Regeneration
2. A new heart

They don't see that as salvation though (yeah, I don't get it either) but then they are able to believe freely and so are saved. Of course they see that it is God who decides who will believe or not because He decided to elect a random number of people for salvation.

But it basically boils down to no-one can believe unless God first regenerates and sanctifies you.

No. I have talked with a lot of Calvinists over the years.
I also read their articles, as well.
Unless they deny Irresistible Grace, they do not believe you can freely choose God.
In Calvinism, there is no choice that a person is making.
The one and only option is a belief alone after one's heart is regenerated.



....

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

No. I have talked with a lot of Calvinists over the years.
I also read their articles, as well.
Unless they deny Irresistible Grace, they do not believe you can freely choose God.
In Calvinism, there is no choice that a person is making.
The one and only option is a belief alone after one's heart is regenerated.
....

Trying to figure out what that belief does to a person's walk

 

[Genez]

No. I have talked with a lot of Calvinists over the years.
I also read their articles, as well.
Unless they deny Irresistible Grace, they do not believe you can freely choose God.
In Calvinism, there is no choice that a person is making.
The one and only option is a belief alone after one's heart is regenerated.

I am no fan of TULIP...

Yet, I agree that a man can not freely choose in our natural state.
That is why Grace must lock up the flesh's power over the soul.
To make that soul able to make a choice being made free of the oppressive sin nature.

They realize that there is a need to overcome our depravity, or no one can believe.

But, unfortunately... they see God as somehow sovereignly resorting to forcing belief upon us by irresistible grace.
When it is grace that actually silences the flesh, so that our soul can make its own choice to believe the word (faith) which was given as the Gospel.

I can see why they got so dogmatic about it in the day the concept blossomed. Dogmatism was a means to throw off the oppressive tyranny of the Catholic church, as it was at that time.

But today we are free to think theology, not fight, duck, and cover.

 

[Genez]

I notice people like to overlook this part. They seem to think they worked out God existed all on their Pat Malone.

Romans 1:19
because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

That's where the word Epignosis came up in the translation being given.
Same result.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Trying to figure out what that belief does to a person's walk

While I have run into two or three Calvinists who were nice, my many years of talking with others was not always so pleasant. One Calvinist in particular was really nasty to me in a private chat. I have also heard stories from people who said that when they converted to Calvinism, their behavior started to take a turn for the worse. Granted, this is not always the case, but it does happen. I have been talking with believers on Christian forums for about fifteen years now, and these patterns have come up more than a few times. Then again, it should not be surprising that this happens. If God has the power to simply snap His fingers and save people against their will, yet chooses not to save everyone when He easily could, that raises a serious moral problem. It makes God appear selective in His love and compassion, even though Scripture declares that He cares for all. So if God is portrayed as unloving in this way, it should not be surprising when those who believe this way reflect that same unloving attitude toward others.

Again, I say this not to wound anyone here, but I say it as my own personal testimony.




....

 

[Genez]

Trying to figure out what that belief does to a person's walk

That is what the Holy Spirit does to a person's walk once they enter into thinking with the Word of God.
Belief is simply revealing a normal response to God.

Before Satan's rebellion, all angels had a relationship with God that was lived by means of belief.
God simply said something and they did it.

Then...
Satan invented the lie.
Thus breaking up the unconditional free flow of belief (faith) between God and angels and man.
Now we must choose what to believe.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

While I have run into two or three Calvinists who were nice, my many years of talking with others was not always so pleasant. One Calvinist in particular was really nasty to me in a private chat. I have also heard stories from people who said that when they converted to Calvinism, their behavior started to take a turn for the worse. Granted, this is not always the case, but it does happen. I have been talking with believers on Christian forums for about fifteen years now, and these patterns have come up more than a few times. Then again, it should not be surprising that this happens. If God has the power to simply snap His fingers and save people against their will, yet chooses not to save everyone when He easily could, that raises a serious moral problem. It makes God appear selective in His love and compassion, even though Scripture declares that He cares for all. So if God is portrayed as unloving in this way, it should not be surprising when those who believe this way reflect that same unloving attitude toward others.

Again, I say this not to wound anyone here, but I say it as my own personal testimony.
....

Thanks for that. Calvin had a murderous heart, so it would not be surprising to see the fruit falling not far from the tree.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15​

 

[Magenta]

Thanks for that. Calvin had a murderous heart, so it would not be surprising to see the fruit falling not far from the tree.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15​

Same for all liars, too, like those who deny what Jesus and Paul taught, right?

Revelation 21 v 7 - 8 The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Genez]

Same for all liars, too, like those who deny what Jesus and Paul taught, right?


Revelation 21 v 7 - 8 The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

Almost everyone has lied after salvation about something.

That speaks of the condemnation of pathological liars.

Pseudos - pathological liars lose all connection with reality.

 

[sawdust]

While it is true that mankind is continually experiencing God at a certain level, all experience isn't the same. God gives providential care to His entire creation. He provides food, clothing, housing, and other graces common to mankind. This is very different than the particular and generally spiritual care to those He has made His own. An unsaved person does not know joy unspeakable and full of glory or peace that passes understanding, though they may recognize it in others.

You completely miss the point of what I said. Epignosis is more than experiencing God. So saying the comparison between gnosis and epignosis is knowing and experiencing is a fallacy.

 

[sawdust]

Or...you might improve your reading comprehension.

Or you might go look at the links I gave and stop making excuses.

 

[cv5]

Then I suggest you learn to read Greek.

I suggest that the Calvinists recognize that the Bible was not penned in the 17th century by a bunch of mostly European scholars.

Because that's the way they interpret it.

 

[sawdust]

Same for all liars, too, like those who deny what Jesus and Paul taught, right?

We have already established your constant lies.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Same for all liars, too, like those who deny what Jesus and Paul taught, right?

Revelation 21 v 7 - 8 The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son. But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

Behold the fruit of the tree of Calvin

 

[sawdust]

I suggest that the Calvinists recognize that the Bible was not penned in the 17th century by a bunch of mostly European scholars.

Because that's the way they interpret it.

I don't know Greek but thanks to places like Bible Hub I can compare word use within scripture. I know enough to recognise that tenses can alter the meaning so when you get the exact same word, with the exact same tense and the exact same translation being used, it is only logical to think it has the exact same meaning.

It is disingenuous I believe to try and say it has one meaning in one place and another meaning in another place just because one doesn't want to face reality.

 

[Magenta]

Behold the fruit of the tree of Calvin

Yes, I get it: You give yourself permission to present logical fallacies to condemn others, and think you
are somehow better than anyone you label as a Calvinist; your hypocrisy is glaring, but you are blind to it.

PS~ are you denying what Scripture says, again?

 

[cv5]

While I have run into two or three Calvinists who were nice, my many years of talking with others was not always so pleasant. One Calvinist in particular was really nasty to me in a private chat. I have also heard stories from people who said that when they converted to Calvinism, their behavior started to take a turn for the worse. Granted, this is not always the case, but it does happen. I have been talking with believers on Christian forums for about fifteen years now, and these patterns have come up more than a few times. Then again, it should not be surprising that this happens. If God has the power to simply snap His fingers and save people against their will, yet chooses not to save everyone when He easily could, that raises a serious moral problem. It makes God appear selective in His love and compassion, even though Scripture declares that He cares for all. So if God is portrayed as unloving in this way, it should not be surprising when those who believe this way reflect that same unloving attitude toward others.

Again, I say this not to wound anyone here, but I say it as my own personal testimony...

Consider the possibility that, much like the fictional "Winter Soldier", all that the brainwashed super-determinist needs to hear is a few code words (like predestined, elect, foreodained etc) to trigger them into a psychotic state of heresy mania.

I am SURE that you can identify these traits as well as the persons afflicted on this thread......right?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

I am no fan of TULIP...

Yet, I agree that a man can not freely choose in our natural state.
That is why Grace must lock up the flesh's power over the soul.
To make that soul able to make a choice being made free of the oppressive sin nature.

They realize that there is a need to overcome our depravity, or no one can believe.

But, unfortunately... they see God as somehow sovereignly resorting to forcing belief upon us by irresistible grace.
When it is grace that actually silences the flesh, so that our soul can make its own choice to believe the word (faith) which was given as the Gospel.

I can see why they got so dogmatic about it in the day the concept blossomed. Dogmatism was a means to throw off the oppressive tyranny of the Catholic church, as it was at that time.

But today we are free to think theology, not fight, duck, and cover.

I believe God the Father, in His mercy, uses Jesus Christ to light the way of every man that comes into the world (John 1:9 KJV), to draw all men to Himself (John 12:32 KJV), to open the heart (Acts 16:14 KJV), and to convict of sin by the Holy Spirit (John 16:8 KJV), enabling each person to make a genuine free-will choice to accept or reject the gospel message. You cannot freely believe or reject the gospel without God’s drawing and illumination. This is why Jesus said, “This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent” (John 6:29 KJV), which aligns with Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV. It truly is God’s work and not our own when we believe. Our choosing God solely based on man’s will alone without God’s drawing, as in Pelagianism, is not true. The truth is that we have God-enabled free will.

This teaching is known as Prevenient Grace in Arminianism, though that term can be misleading because the word grace implies salvation, which is not automatic in this moment of enablement. A more accurate description is Temporary Enablement or Enlightenment. Under God’s drawing, the heart and understanding of man are opened so he can comprehend the truth of the gospel and respond in faith of his own free will. The gospel message of salvation is believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. Paul wrote, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth” (Romans 1:16 KJV). God enlightens and draws, but He never forces. Grace must be received by faith, not imposed apart from it.



....

 

[cv5]

We have already established your constant lies.

Copious quantities of white hot searing vitriol too.

Much like the jetwash of an F-22 on full afterburner.....