Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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This is not a forced regeneration upon the heart that compels belief as if no other choice existed.
The logical fallacies presented become tiresome after a time. Oh my, God forced life on you, why don't you
tell us as others do what an unjust tyrannical monster He is kidnapping people against their free will?
There are ZERO verses expressing the free will of the natural man in the Bible. You have no leg to stand on.
On the other hand I have given many verses that support my view.


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Flesh serves the law of sin. For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Nothing good lives in my flesh. Who can say, “I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin”? Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one! The flesh brings forth fruit unto death. Romans 7 v 25, Galatians 5 v 17, Romans 7 v 18, Proverbs 20 v 9, Job 14 v 4, Romans 7 v 5 (Romans 8 v 13 and James 1 v 15)
 
No one forces insight upon another.

For, it requires insight to have it.

Columbus sensed reasons why the world was not flat.
Not everyone believed it.

I believe God can force insight upon men:

Genesis 20:3–7 (KJV)

3 "But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.​
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?​
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.​
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.​
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine."​
Granted, this is not like forcing salvation upon others, like in Calvinism.
But I do see God forcing insight into understanding the gospel to all men or the majority of mankind under His drawing, or temporary enlightenment. We see God open the heart of Lydia before she heard the gospel. I believe this opening of the heart is to help the sinner to understand the gospel, to make a free will choice in either accepting the gospel or freely rejecting it.

I believe when Jesus said that this is the work of God to believe in the one whom He sent was a reference to how it is God's work and not our work upon our hearts that gives us the capacity to truly believe. So when Paul says we are saved by God's grace through faith and not works, that still holds true (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Do you believe in Prevenient Grace?



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They do not have a moral problem with their soteriology because the character of God is not the one described in scripture.
The character of God as we describe Him is that He loves us enough to give us life, just as Scripture states and as we affirm ... which is not what you say ... you many times have told us how unfair God is ... you would rather blaspheme Him than admit you are wrong.
 
I agree this is a struggle for some.

There are those who hold to the Calvinistic view of God even though, deep down, they know it does not align with Scripture. No amount of real-world examples seems able to pierce their conscience and bring them to see the moral problem of their belief.

Others may simply not recognize the moral dilemma yet because they have not chosen to face it. But once a person truly believes that God’s goodness and morality are perfectly consistent in everything He does, they will eventually let go of this unbiblical belief system.
All those who CHOOSE to cling to and proclaim a salvation message of God's hatred for all men and chosenite exclusively raise your "left" hand.

Come on all you Calvinists don't be shy....
 
He remained functioning as man.

That does not mean he was not also God.
He was just not functioning in the power of His own Deity to remain being as a man.

His deity agreed not to empower him directly.
As a man of God, all his power had to be supplied by the Holy Spirit, not his own Deity.


Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death,
even death on a cross.
Philippians 2:6-8​


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He is our example. He is the perfect example of how believers can and should live.

If The Lord Jesus Christ "cheated" and used His deity......All of us would be exempt of His example.
 
All those who CHOOSE to cling to and proclaim a salvation message of God's hatred for all men and chosenite exclusively raise your "left" hand.

Come on all you Calvinists don't be shy....

2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Calvinists reject the plain, straightforward meaning of this verse because it does not fit the picture of God they prefer to hold in their minds.




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2 Peter 3:9
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

Calvinists reject the plain, straightforward meaning of this verse because it does not fit the picture of God they prefer to hold in their minds.
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If God forced people as you claim then all would come to repentance.

God commands all to repent. Guess what? The unregenerated man can neither submit to nor obey God.

This is explicitly articulated in Scripture.

They can neither receive nor comprehend the spiritual things of God.

This is explicitly articulated in Scripture.

They are hostile in their minds toward God and OPPOSED to the things of God.

This is explicitly articulated in Scripture.

They are of the flesh, serving the law of sin, which brings forth fruit unto death.

This is explicitly articulated in Scripture.
 
He is our example. He is the perfect example of how believers can and should live.

If The Lord Jesus Christ "cheated" and used His deity......All of us would be exempt of His example.

Well, if that is the case, then you can have people worship you like Jesus had allowed and claim that you are God like He did.
You can die on the cross for man's sins.
So, there are obviously limits to imitating Christ's behavior.

While Christ omniscience was suppressed during His earthly ministry, He also used His divine power as God, too.

#1. Jesus said He has power to raise the dead to life just as the Father had power to raise the dead (John 5:21). Please take note that this was said in context after Jesus healed the man at the pool of Bethesda. Jesus was also saying this when the Pharisees were upset that he did this healing on the Sabbath. So when Jesus says He can raise the dead, like the Father can, He is laying claim to ownership to this miracle He just did. Yes, Jesus did not bring this man at the pool back from the dead. But he did make his legs that were dead to come back alive and He also no doubt had led this man to trust in Him (Which is spiritual life). So this is an example of Jesus acting on behalf of his own power. Jesus does nothing of Himself alone without the Father. Yet, Jesus said that what He sees the Father do (like healing miracles), He also can do likewise (See: John 5:19).​
#2. Jesus had the power to forgive sins and give eternal life (Mark 2:7) (Luke 7:44-50) (John 14:6). This is clearly an act of God here. Only God can truly absolve sin in regard to our salvation and give us eternal life. No man could ever do this. So clearly Jesus is exercising His divine power as God on Earth. There are several examples in Scripture of Jesus forgiving others their sins (Which is clearly a divine act or power of God alone). Jesus also extended eternal life to others by pointing to Himself. Only God can truly have this power.​
#3. Jesus had power to take on our sins & Jesus had power to take away the sins of the entire world (John 1:29).Jesus took away the sins of the world by His death. Only God could do this. Jesus took on our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane in His body. He sweat great drops of blood in this process. No human could do this. Only God could. God is our Savior and not some mere man. Yes, Jesus had a flesh and blood body. No doubt about it. But no mere man has any power for such a task. Only God could truly have the power and strength to carry and take away our sin. In other words, man cannot resist all of his own sin of his own power, and yet for a man to take on the whole sins of the world? Not possible by the strength or power of some mere man alone. Truly the divine power of the eternal Word was at work here.​
#4. Jesus Christ said wherever two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them (Matthew 18:20). This was said to the people he was around and not to just us today. Meaning, Jesus can be in His spirit among other believers who went away to some other location. Remember, God is Omnipresent. Jesus can be anywhere in His spirit as He desires because He is God. No man has such a power or ability. Only God has this ability.​
#5. Jesus can make His home or abode inside of us if we keep His commandments (John 14:15). This is a part of His divine power and or abilities as God. Humans born to two parents cannot make their homes inside other people. Jesus did not say he would only do this after His resurrection, either. He said it to those around Him and therefore Jesus would have exercised this power because some follower of His would have strived to keep His commands.​
#6 “This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.” (John 2:11). This was a direct statement. Meaning, Christ’s miracle at the wedding of Cana manifested His glory. This was his first miracle done by Jesus, and it was a part of His showing forth His deity as God. The apostle John did not say that the Lord Jesus manifested the Holy Spirit’s glory, but His own glory. So when Jesus turned water into wine (unfermented wine), it was an act that manifested His own power as the Son of God.​
#7. ”And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.” (John 14:13-14). This was said by Jesus before the cross, and answering prayers is definitely a divine act of God. Please pay close attention to what Jesus said. He said, “I will do it“ in reference to answering prayer. So if a person prays for a healing in His name, he will do it. He will be the One who will heal them and do it.​
#8. Hebrews 1:3 talks about how Christ held all things together by the word of His power when He purged us of our sins.​
#9. Jesus said, He would raise up this Temple (His body) three days later (John 2:19). This aligns with the words of Jesus elsewhere when He said, "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” (John 10:17-18). This commandment have I received of my Father." These statements by our Lord highlights His divine authority over His own life and death.​

Side Note:

It's important to remember that God the Father also performed miracles through Jesus (John 14:8-12). Additionally, Jesus cast out demons and healed people through the power of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:22-32). However, this does not conflict with the fact that Jesus possessed His own divine power as God and actively used it. While the theological doctrine of the Kenosis suggests that Jesus had power but chose not to use it, I believe the verses above clearly demonstrate that He did indeed exercise His own divine authority as the Son of God during his Earthly ministry.




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If God forced people as you claim then all would come to repentance.

I think you are confusing the Calvinist belief with mine.
I don't believe God forces salvation upon others like Calvinists do.
But 2 Peter 3:9 needs to be explained in a logical way by Calvinists that sounds believable.
So far, I have not heard any explanations by Calvinists that would make any kind of sense out of 2 Peter 3:9.




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I think you are confusing the Calvinist belief with mine.
I don't believe God forces salvation upon others like Calvinists do.
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No, you said God forced things on people.

I believe God can force insight upon men:

Why not call it revealing Himself as He promised to do?

Drawing us with loving kindness as He promised to do?

Causing the light to shine in out hearts to give us knowledge as Scripture says?

No, to you it is forcing things on us. You complain about being given life.
 
But 2 Peter 3:9 needs to be explained in a logical way by Calvinists that sounds believable.
So far, I have not heard any explanations by Calvinists that would make any kind of sense out of 2 Peter 3:9.
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You will have to ask a Calvinist. Rufus will likely be here at some point...

Although your disclaimer "in a way that sounds believable" is laughable.

You already do not believe what Scripture says on multiple points.
 
No, you said God forced things on people.

I was referring to insight, not salvation.
God also compels certain things by His design. He gives us oxygen, and He placed us on this planet rather than another.
There are indeed things God determines for us, yet none of them violate His goodness or love.
However, if God were to force some to be saved while refusing to save others when He could, that would contradict His good moral nature and love. Again, my earlier analogy about being lost at sea, where a rescuer saves everyone except you and your loved ones, perfectly illustrates the point that Calvinism is morally bankrupt.




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You will have to ask a Calvinist. Rufus will likely be here at some point...

Although your disclaimer "in a way that sounds believable" is laughable.

You already do not believe what Scripture says on multiple points.

By what you stated in this thread so far, it leads me to believe you are a Calvinist.
So to redirect me to ask a Calvinist when you appear to be one sounds odd to me.



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I was referring to insight, not salvation.
God also compels certain things by His design. He gives us oxygen, and He placed us on this planet rather than another.
There are indeed things God determines for us, yet none of them violate His goodness or love.
However, if God were to force some to be saved while refusing to save others when He could, that would contradict His good moral nature and love. Again, my earlier analogy about being lost at sea, where a rescuer saves everyone except you and your loved ones, perfectly illustrates the point that Calvinism is morally bankrupt....
Forcing things is forcing things. I have not heard anyone say God forces salvation on people. That is just whack. On the other hand we ARE told that those given to Jesus WILL come to Him, and those who know Him are ONLY those to whom He has chosen to reveal \Himself.. another thing some contradict and deny. You know what else free willer have said? That God somehow convinces them while they are basically in a state of being incapable of receiving accepting or comprehending the spiritual things of God and then after being convinced, they get to choose whether to believe what they are already convinced of. This is the height of logic among free willers who cannot stop ascribing to the natural man what is only possible of the speitutal man.
 
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By what you stated in this thread so far, it leads me to believe you are a Calvinist.
So to redirect me to ask a Calvinist when you appear to be one sounds odd to me.
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Sure, I get called that a lot by people who also lie about Calvin himself.

You are a Pelagian heretic.

And dishonest to pretend my beliefs are not Biblical. I have given many many verses already.
 
I think you are confusing the Calvinist belief with mine.
I don't believe God forces salvation upon others like Calvinists do.
But 2 Peter 3:9 needs to be explained in a logical way by Calvinists that sounds believable.
So far, I have not heard any explanations by Calvinists that would make any kind of sense out of 2 Peter 3:9.




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Their faulty view is "all" does not mean "all."

In these verses their god it referring to his elect, those which are created so they can be selected for salvation, and if you say that is not
in the scripture, then they will inform you that you do not understand Calvinism or Reformed doctrine.
 
You will have to ask a Calvinist. Rufus will likely be here at some point...

Although your disclaimer "in a way that sounds believable" is laughable.

You already do not believe what Scripture says on multiple points.

If Calvinism were true, then why are there tons of verses that make it sound like God commands, and says things that will hold man accountable? That sounds a bit misleading to me. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Man will be judged according to his works. Why do that if it was about God simply not choosing them? It would be like having a judgment for wolves or something. It doesn't make any sense. You have to ignore tons of verses in order to make Calvinism work.



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If Calvinism were true, then why are there tons of verses that make it sound like God commands, and says things that will hold man accountable? That sounds a bit misleading to me. God commands all men everywhere to repent. Man will be judged according to his works. Why do that if it was about God simply not choosing them? It would be like having a judgment for wolves or something. It doesn't make any sense. You have to ignore tons of verses in order to make Calvinism work. ...
Do you not believe what the Bible says? Man has no excuse. It has nothing to do with Calvinism. My beliefs
are based on Scripture, and I have given many verses already proving that. Stop pretending otherwise.
 
Sure, I get called that a lot by people who also lie about Calvin himself.

You are a Pelagian heretic.

And dishonest to pretend my beliefs are not Biblical. I have given many many verses already.

Thank you for calling me a heretic.
That really makes me feel great today (See: Matthew 5:11-12 KJV).

By the way, I’ve clarified several times in this thread that I am not a Pelagian.
I believe in the doctrine many believers today call Prevenient Grace.
Pelagians reject this doctrine entirely. I prefer to describe it as Temporary Enablement or Temporary Enlightenment, since it refers to God’s gracious act of freeing the will so a person can respond to the gospel.



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