Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[GWH]

Did y'all like the poem from Paul?

 

[sawdust]

Phl 1:29
For unto you it is given G5483 in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

My understanding of that verse has always been that it is Christ that has been given freely so that we might believe in Him and to also suffer with Him or that salvation has been given freely for the sake of Christ so we might believe and suffer with Him. I'm inclined to think the latter as salvation is mentioned in the previous verse.

I don't know Greek, don't know if you have studied it or not, but interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[Kroogz]

for God does not love all

This is a key point for us believers to master.

God does love all of mankind. It is an impersonal, unconditional love for all of mankind...Agape love. John 3:16. It is a virtue of God.

God loves based upon who and what He is, not based upon who and what we are. As believers, He has a personal love for us. Based upon who and what we are....Christ in us.

As we develop our personal love for God( Bible doctrine, study,study study.) We will eventually have this impersonal and unconditional love for all of mankind. This is KEY in our spiritual growth. And how we will come to realize that we should love as He loves.

A couple of links below if interested.

Personal and Impersonal Love (2016)
The FLOT Line ShowSep 26, 2024


Share
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https://creators.spotify.com/pod/pr...nal-and-Impersonal-Love-2016-eq3dsc/a-a4ito0n

https://gbible.org/daily-message/pe...-impersonal-unconditional-agape-love-mankind/

 

[sawdust]

It translates into all the faculties of the human heart are corrupt/depraved in the quantitative sense.

And the heart is a function of the soul and it is God who creates the soul, therefore you have God creating depravity which, is why you are in error on the doctrine of Total Depravity.

The heart is created neutral, knowing neither good not evil and if there were no grace, would inevitably become depraved but grace always precedes corruption and truth always precedes lies. Man chooses what he will follow.

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

God loved what He created, so much so, He refuses to see it go down the gurgler therefore giving it everything He has to see all of it redeemed, even His very own Son. But? .... "choose you this day whom you will serve".

Lucifer chose of his own free will
The elect angels chose of their own free will
The fallen angels chose of their own free will
Adam and Eve chose of their own free will
Jesus the Christ chose of His own free will

Hmmmm, there's a pattern here, I wonder if you will ever get it.

 

[NightTwister]

20000 messages. 1000 pages. Nothing has changed.

 

[sawdust]

Nope I don't know, nor do I care about fallen angels. I want answers, please, to the three specific questions I asked.

You must be finding it very difficult these days to defend your FWT with straightforward answers, heh?

So, here are the questions again from 19, 980:

Are you saying here that sinners are powerless to restrain the flesh (their own sin nature)?

And you also seem to be saying that if God did not begin the work of salvation, no one would be able to "begin to believe"?

Finally, who completes the salvation that God sovereignly began?

Strewth man, how many times must things be clarified, how many times must it be stated?

@Genez has been saying the same thing throughout the entire thread.

If not for grace no man would be saved. God always initiates, God always completes His work.

 

[sawdust]

I'm not as interested in tulip as you are or your husband genez or your other colleagues.

Neither am I interested in your silly immature remarks.

But you still can't take a hint. You continue to open your mouth and share your thoughts with me. You need to learn and keep your word and not share like you said you would.

Christ keeps His word and we must learn to do the same.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

But this isn't the case with Philippians 1:29. It says God gives the suffering.

No ... the verse does not state that suffering is given by God ...

Some of the sufferings in this life are attacks from satan. I can agree that God allows satan to go only so far in his attacks on God's people, but I do not agree that it is God Who sends the adversary's minions.

Some of the sufferings in this life are due to our own actions in not following the Lord Jesus Christ ... or not following God's Word. I do not agree that God directs us to do anything contrary to His Word. In fact, I believe we are forewarned by Holy Spirit within ... that we should do something or not do something ... we disregard the warnings, and do or don't do things because we fail to pay heed.

You can disagree ... you can claim that I "strain at gnats and swallow camels" ... at the end of the day, and when the whole counsel of God concerning this issue is considered, your claim that "God gives the suffering" is the not the absolute meaning of Phil 1:29.
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[reneweddaybyday]

In other words you will stick with the man-made, false gospel that is transactional in nature. That way you and other FWers can boast in the part your powerful "freewill" made, which freed God up to live up to his part of the quid pro quo salvation bargain.

whatever, Rufus, if you do not believe the gospel, no salvation for you.

Romans 1:16-19

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Those who believe the gospel of Christ receive the blessing.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness receive the consequence.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, Salvation is in view since belief is not just a one-time, done deal act but is a continuous, ongoing way of a sanctified life.

Agree the believer is to live from faith to faith (Rom 1:17) ... eternal life of the believer begins in faith (belief in the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation) ... to faith. it's not from works to faith ... or from faith to works ... but from faith to faith.

I believe salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith once a person believes the gospel of Christ ... while full realization of all that entails is yet future.

Once a person is born again, God works within the born again believer to remove that which is not conducive to the believer being conformed to the image of Christ. This is a lifelong endeavor as we will not reach full maturity until the time we see the Lord Jesus Christ face to face ... at that time, we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is (1 John 3:2). This is the sanctification process we go through in this life.

Paul wasn't writing to people who at one time believed in the past (although they certainly did at past point in time) but is writing to people who currently believe -- right in the here and now.

Yes ... which is why the word "believe" is in the present tense ... they at one time "believed" (past tense) unto salvation (Phil 1:28) and continue to "believe" present tense, as well as "suffer" (present tense) on the behalf of Christ (Phil 1:29).

And it should not come as a shock to us that we will suffer on the behalf of Christ as we are warned over and over in Scripture that this would be the case.
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[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In other words you will stick with the man-made, false gospel that is transactional in nature. That way you and other FWers can boast in the part your powerful "freewill" made, which freed God up to live up to his part of the quid pro quo salvation bargain.

In effect, you're boasting for not doing anything.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

But the narrative itself does not support your theory for either A or E! First comes the divine decree. Then the divine provision. The biblical evidence for Eve's faith came much later for her. The biblical evidence for Adam's faith is ZERO! Adam simply understood the spiritual implications behind God's decree concerning Eve.

As stated earlier, if either one of our first parents were true blue believers, they would not have run FROM God, but would have run TO him to SEEK forgiveness. Believers don't run away from God like apostates do.

They hid from God in Gen 3:10 ... which was prior to God having given the promise of Messiah.

The promise of Messiah promised by God was spoken in Gen 3:15.

Again, do a word study on the Heb term that is rendered "drove" in Gen 3:24 and tell me how many times that word is used with reference to believers. Did Jesus drive away Peter when he dared to question God's purpose for Jesus' life and Jesus rebuked him sharply with "Get thee behind me, Satan"? Or, again, did Jesus drive Peter away knowing that he would deny his Lord three times?

I agree God expelled Adam and Eve from the garden. I do not believe Adam was the spawn of satan as you do. I believe both Adam and Eve believed God's promise of Messiah in Gen 3:15, God made sacrifice/offering for the sin of both Adam and Eve, and God covered the shame of both Adam and Eve.

One more thing...in some earlier post you had asked me if I loved Jesus if you recall? But before I answer, you'll have to define what YOU mean by "love".

here's the verse:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

The word "love" in John 14:23 is translated from the Greek word agapáō. Here are some verses from 1 John in which the word is agapáō used:

1 John 4:7-5:3

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
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[reneweddaybyday]

My understanding of that verse has always been that it is Christ that has been given freely so that we might believe in Him and to also suffer with Him or that salvation has been given freely for the sake of Christ so we might believe and suffer with Him. I'm inclined to think the latter as salvation is mentioned in the previous verse.

yes ... salvation, and that of God (Phil 1:28), had already occurred for those to whom Paul wrote.

then Phil 1:29 ... where "believe" and "suffer" are present tense verbs because we continue to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we will suffer for His sake ... something He told us would happen.
.

 

[Kroogz]

whatever, Rufus, if you do not believe the gospel, no salvation for you.

Romans 1:16-19

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Those who believe the gospel of Christ receive the blessing.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness receive the consequence.
.

I have yet to hear a solid argument that having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is worthy of boasting.....It cannot be done.

It is rather humbling to recognize that you are a sinner and in need of salvation. And only the Lord Jesus Christ can do that for you.

 

[sawdust]

I have yet to hear a solid argument that having faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is worthy of boasting.....It cannot be done.

It is rather humbling to recognize that you are a sinner and in need of salvation. And only the Lord Jesus Christ can do that for you.

You cannot get rational thoughts from irrational beliefs.

 

[Mem]

Fallen angels have been denied the right.

Angels can materialize.
They can appear to be a human being.
With their materialized bodies, they can eat human food!

So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahs of the finest flour and knead ​

it and bake some bread.”​

​

Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. ​

He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. ​

While they ate, he stood near them under a tree. Genesis 18:6-8​

​

We have instructions to entertain strangers because some have entertained angels without knowing it!

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. Hebrews 13:2​

​

And, in the wilderness, following Moses?
The Jews ate the food of angels (mana)!

Psalm 78:24-25

God rained manna upon them for food;
grain from heaven he gave them.
Man ate the bread of the angels;
food he sent in abundance.​

Angels have a power to materialize, or remain invisible.
Demons have been denied such an ability any longer.
Its why some demons wish to possess a body!

Yes...
Truth is stranger than fiction.....

​

​

The only one I've ever heard that had "come in the flesh" is Jesus.

 

[GWH]

20000 messages. 1000 pages. Nothing has changed.

Some people evidently enjoy verbal sparring.
Wonder what they will do to fill the time in heaven?

 

[Kroogz]

Notice that our being saved has nothing to do with anything we have done. It is all due to God's
own purpose and grace...

What is the "purpose" of God? The shew bread in the temple. The bread of the presence and PURPOSE of God.

He is our nourishment and He has generously provided for us all.

Gods purpose= The Lord Jesus Christ.

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty.

John 6:48
I am the bread of life.

John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.”

 

[cv5]

yes ... salvation, and that of God (Phil 1:28), had already occurred for those to whom Paul wrote.

then Phil 1:29 ... where "believe" and "suffer" are present tense verbs because we continue to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we will suffer for His sake ... something He told us would happen.
.

Spot on analysis and conclusion IMO.

 

[cv5]

My understanding of that verse has always been that it is Christ that has been given freely so that we might believe in Him and to also suffer with Him or that salvation has been given freely for the sake of Christ so we might believe and suffer with Him. I'm inclined to think the latter as salvation is mentioned in the previous verse.

I don't know Greek, don't know if you have studied it or not, but interested to hear your thoughts.

@studier is the bona fide Greek scholar.
I am little more than a "duffer" and student at best. But, I broadcast anyways....