Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Cameron143]

To say "to be given," means that someone passed a test to qualify for something.

"It's a given with his abilities that he should play for the team."

It can mean as you say, but that would have to be stated in the passage. Where do you find that in the passage?

 

[Cameron143]

we are in agreement on this point with reference to Phil 1:29.





right ... but vs 29 also says not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake. We cannot endure the suffering without God providing for us as we are going through the afflictions of this life ... in the present time we go through trials (hence present tense "believe" in Phil 1:29) ... so while we are enduring the trials of this present time, God works within the believer.

I mentioned 1 Peter 5:10 yesterday ... what God is working in us while we are going through our times of trial ... we may or may not realize that God is working in us because we're so focused on what we're going through ... but once we're through, we are a little further along in our maturing in the Lord ... God works within to perfect, establish, strengthen, settle ... and the next trial that comes along, we're that much stronger in faith in order to endure.

The Amplified Bible renders the term in nothing terrified by your adversaries as follows:

And in no way be alarmed or intimidated [in anything] by your opponents, for such [constancy and fearlessness on your part] is a [clear] sign [a proof and a seal] for them of [their impending] destruction, but [a clear sign] for you of deliverance and salvation, and that too, from God. ​

satan knows his end ... he knows he can't touch God ... so he goes after mankind ... and especially believers ... children of God. And being strong in the Lord and in the power of His might is the only way we can stand against his wiles.
.

The passage doesn't say anything about needing help to go through suffering. It just says suffering, like believing is given. You guys strain at gnats and swallow camels.

 

[Inquisitor]

Many have probably realised i don't think we can exercise free will, even think it's impossible for us to. Won't explain why i think it's an impossiblility for us yet, think it's useful for some to express why they think it exists first.

I have no doubt we have and can make choices throughout life, however, think our options are far more restricted than most realise. What do you think?

How do you on the one hand make the claim that you can make choices (free will).

Then on the other hand you claim it is impossible to express free will?

You appear to be proposing a paradox?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The passage doesn't say anything about needing help to go through suffering. It just says suffering, like believing is given. You guys strain at gnats and swallow camels.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake

The fact that both verbs ("believe" and "suffer) are in the present tense attests to the fact that the believing and suffering refer to the present ... therefore, the believing does not refer to the time in the past when the born again one believed unto salvation.

You can claim that I "strain at gnats and swallow camels" to your heart's content ... doesn't mean your claim is true.

Good night to you, sir.
.

 

[sawdust]

Your not interested in anything I have to say, and neither are your friends,. Your only interested in what you have to say about this topic.

You've got an answer for everything, so no I won't share with you.

I appreciate that, thanks.

 

[Genez]

Suffering is given by God. Look at what Paul says in Colossians 1:24. David said it was good for him to be afflicted. Peter said to count it all joy to go through trials. So yes, suffering is given by God for the benefit of His children.

Not all suffering is from God, though.
Some comes from simply reaping what we sow.

For example...

If I was in a forum, and was promoting false doctrine?
And, I was stubborn enough to tell myself it was sound doctrine?
A vicious cycle would be established in my life. One that was reinforced
by thinking that the negativity I was receiving was suffering for Christ’s sake.

We either reap what we sow?
Or, in grace, we reap what the Lord has sown in His plan for our life.

 

[Genez]

only in your head so they

Do you know what TULIP signifies?

 

[Cameron143]

Not all suffering is from God, though.
Some comes from simply reaping what we sow.

For example...

If I was in a forum, and was promoting false doctrine?
And, I was stubborn enough to tell myself it was sound doctrine?
A vicious cycle would be established in my life. One that was reinforced
by thinking that the negativity I was receiving was suffering for Christ’s sake.

We either reap what we sow?
Or, in grace, we reap what the Lord has sown in His plan for our life.

But this isn't the case with Philippians 1:29. It says God gives the suffering.

 

[Kroogz]

Or, in grace, we reap what the Lord has sown in His plan for our life.

And this type of suffering is for spiritually mature believers ONLY.

Believers who are well equipped with Bible doctrine that is metabolized and applied will go through undeserved suffering......For blessing, momentum and Glorifying the Lord.

Philippians 3
12Not that I have already grasped it all or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that [h]for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not regard myself as having taken hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15Therefore, all who are https://biblehub.com/nasb_/philippians/3.htm#fnmature, let’s have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that to you as well; 16however, let’s keep [j]living by that same standard to which we have attained.

Todays churches do not feed the flock. So most believers are not equipped for suffering for blessing/undeserved suffering.

This thread is a perfect example. Most have not even eaten, metabolized and applied the MILK yet. Most believers are stuck with deserved suffering/reaping what they sow.........And that is SAD INDEED.

 

[Magenta]

But this isn't the case with Philippians 1:29. It says God gives the suffering.

Isaiah 48:10 ~ I have tested you in the furnace of affliction

 

[GWH]

In reviewing your post last night, I noticed that you mainly included boilerplate verses, related remarks, and restated the actual verses, but you did not offer detailed analysis or discuss your interpretation as to what the verses mean, as was expected of this exercise. As a result, your point of view was withheld, and since you chose to do so, I’m uncertain as to how you might interpret them. If you choose to accept them as written, I would fully concur with that interpretation. But by that, you deny people the capacity to achieve or influence their own salvation. So, which is it? Based upon those verses, from your perspective, do you think it is within man’s prerogative to cause his own salvation or can he not? Do these verses stand alone, or are there other relevant verses that will alter their meaning that should be factored in? Those are the key questions that you left unanswered. Please provide justification to any conclusions you might posit.
Therefore, while my understanding of those verses is that they are self-evident, needing nothing beyond what they state, I will reserve posting my full, detailed analysis until after you’ve posted yours since you started this off, so that I can respond to it.

Unfortunately, I had a typo and meant to cite 1 Tim. 2:3-4 in the last paragraph, which indicates that God wants everyone to be saved,
but since no Scripture teaches that everyone is saved, we must conclude that God's grace (Eph. 2:8-9) is resistible. Thus, the answer to your question is that it is within man's MFW to accept God's grace or not (Tit. 2:11, 2Pet. 3:9). Accepting the gift through faith is not causing or earning the gift, but merely the non-meritorious condition for receiving the gift (Eph. 2:8-9). No verses stand alone, but all Scripture/GW should be factored in, whether they alter that meaning or confirm it (Matt. 4:6-7).

I did not want to hog the discussion, so I offered you the opportunity to discuss the context for the meaning of grace per Romans 3:21-5:11, but I see you declined, so I will start from the beginning of Romans.

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that grace or salvation/election (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

Do you want to say something or should I continue?

 

[rogerg]

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that grace or salvation/election (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

A quick answer to the above is that you are absolutely correct about salvation being only for those who believe, although I would have stated it as all those who truly believe have been saved, changing the sequence of cause and effect from what you've implied. But there is no doubt that true belief is foundational for those saved. I would add however that the important question that underlies belief and needs to be answered is who will believe and why will they believe? I think Titus 3:5-6 provides a foundation to help answer it. So, thank you for your replies, but you didn't address Tit 3:5-6 in them, which I thought the point of this discussion. I am well aware there are many verses which on the surface appear to say what you allege but I think for the most part, they can be refuted. The problem with that approach is that we will never reach the end of the discussion going back and forth into oblivion just to finally end back where we started. I would therefore respectfully suggest that you begin with an assessment of Titus 3:5-6 and if necessary, we can go from there. I don't think either of us wants to turn this discussion into a career.

 

[Jordon]

I appreciate that, thanks.

Do you know what TULIP signifies?

Neither one of you have appreciated anything said in this thread, because your both to busy being obsessed with this tulip and this Calvinism thing.

Your both clearly obsessed with it for the wrong reasons, so much so your both rejecting scripture after scripture,

The devil has you both where he wants you,


Timothy Charged to Oppose False Teachers
3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer 4 or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. Such things promote controversial speculations rather than advancing God’s work—which is by faith.

Advancing Gods work is by his faith, that he gives to people, you don't advance his work by wrongly accusing people, neither do you advance his work by wrongly disagreeing with scripture.

The faith that he gives to people holds his permissive will within the faith he gives you


This is why his faith here teaches not to persist in imaginary babblings,

Which is what you've both been doing everyday here and have done for far to long, despite being told otherwise you still both persist, using every word of God to oppose bad readings of a tulip doctrine that the people your accusing on a daily bases are not doing what your accusing them of. People who have miss used tulip are probably by people like yourselves who will not listen.

Despite being told over and over again to stop you two along with cv5 and heishere have continued to hate every good word spoken by good people here,. on the bases you have down as this evil calvinistic person.

You are all really totally disrespectful

 

[HeIsHere]

Suffering is given by God. Look at what Paul says in Colossians 1:24. David said it was good for him to be afflicted. Peter said to count it all joy to go through trials. So yes, suffering is given by God for the benefit of His children.

In the Reformed view saving faith is a deliberate act of god to particular individuals something they previously did not have.
So now you are stuck also asserting that Paul is stating the suffering is being given directly, individually, equally.

Well for one reality does not support this because there have been many Christians who have not suffered like the first century Christians, but we can put that aside because your view is a complete failure with proper exegesis and by looking at the original verbiage.

Is persecution given to each believer as gift along with the gift of faith... NO!!

As I already stated, Paul with a brilliant mind who was not from the Reformed school of thought, used the word "charizomai" NOT "didomi" which is direct giving.

Charizomai means granted/freely given. See 1 Cor 2:12.
As in the sunlight is freely given NOT a deliberate act to particular individuals.

As well, we also know they Paul was writing to the Gentiles in Philippi, so Paul being brilliant is explaining to them the implication that as a group they have been brought into the faith but this also means that as a group there will be suffering.

Here it is captured better....

29 For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for him.
New Living Translation

And never has it more true ...... #contextkillscalvinism!!!

 

[Jordon]

In the Reformed view saving faith is a deliberate act of god to particular individuals something they previously did not have.
So now you are stuck also asserting that Paul is stating the suffering is being given directly, individually, equally.

Well for one reality does not support this because there have been many Christians who have not suffered like the first century Christians, but we can put that aside because your view is a complete failure with proper exegesis and by looking at the original verbiage.

Is persecution given to each believer as gift along with the gift of faith... NO!!

As I already stated, Paul with a brilliant mind who was not from the Reformed school of thought, used the word "charizomai" NOT "didomi" which is direct giving.

Charizomai means granted/freely given. See 1 Cor 2:12.
As in the sunlight is freely given NOT a deliberate act to particular individuals.

As well, we also know they Paul was writing to the Gentiles in Philippi, so Paul being brilliant is explaining to them the implication that as a group they have been brought into the faith but this also means that as a group there will be suffering.

Here it is captured better....

29 For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for him.
New Living Translation

And never has it more true ...... #contextkillscalvinism!!!

again you devote all of Gods word to be against Calvinism , and again pointing it directly towards a one person, because you have him down as someone following a wrong interpretation of tulip.

Nope the people who are wrongly accusing have the incorrect interpretations.of tulip, which is you genez cv5 sawdust.

 

[HeIsHere]

again you devote all of Gods word to be against Calvinism , and again pointing it directly towards a one person, because you have him down as someone following a wrong interpretation of tulip.

Nope the people who are wrongly accusing have the incorrect interpretations.of tulip, which is you genez cv5 sawdust.

And what is the right interpretation?

 

[cv5]

In the Reformed view saving faith is a deliberate act of god to particular individuals something they previously did not have.
So now you are stuck also asserting that Paul is stating the suffering is being given directly, individually, equally.

Well for one reality does not support this because there have been many Christians who have not suffered like the first century Christians, but we can put that aside because your view is a complete failure with proper exegesis and by looking at the original verbiage.

Is persecution given to each believer as gift along with the gift of faith... NO!!

As I already stated, Paul with a brilliant mind who was not from the Reformed school of thought, used the word "charizomai" NOT "didomi" which is direct giving.

Charizomai means granted/freely given. See 1 Cor 2:12.
As in the sunlight is freely given NOT a deliberate act to particular individuals.

As well, we also know they Paul was writing to the Gentiles in Philippi, so Paul being brilliant is explaining to them the implication that as a group they have been brought into the faith but this also means that as a group there will be suffering.

Here it is captured better....

29 For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for him.
New Living Translation

And never has it more true ...... #contextkillscalvinism!!!

Charizomai means granted/freely given. See 1 Cor 2:12.
As in the sunlight is freely given NOT a deliberate act to particular individuals.

Yes, that is the key to the passage....."freely given". I was going to post this lexical entry, glad you took note of it.
Yet another rebuke to Calvinistic error.

 

[cv5]

A quick answer to the above is that you are absolutely correct about salvation being only for those who believe, although I would have stated it as all those who truly believe have been saved, changing the sequence of cause and effect from what you've implied. But there is no doubt that true belief is foundational for those saved. I would add however that the important question that underlies belief and needs to be answered is who will believe and why will they believe? I think Titus 3:5-6 provides a foundation to help answer it. So, thank you for your replies, but you didn't address Tit 3:5-6 in them, which I thought the point of this discussion. I am well aware there are many verses which on the surface appear to say what you allege but I think for the most part, they can be refuted. The problem with that approach is that we will never reach the end of the discussion going back and forth into oblivion just to finally end back where we started. I would therefore respectfully suggest that you begin with an assessment of Titus 3:5-6 and if necessary, we can go from there. I don't think either of us wants to turn this discussion into a career.

No.
Titus 3:5-6 declares salvation by grace through faith, not of works.

In flawless accord with every other soteriological statement ever made.

 

[HeIsHere]

Charizomai means granted/freely given. See 1 Cor 2:12.
As in the sunlight is freely given NOT a deliberate act to particular individuals.

Yes, that is the key to the passage....."freely given". I was going to post this lexical entry, glad you took note of it.
Yet another rebuke to Calvinistic error.

They keep trying and striking out, over and over.

At some point a reasonable person who wants to treat scripture fairly would renounce this system, but they do not.
Well I guess they can answer to God.

Seriously, how can any humble believer who wants to pursue truth and further the Good News of Christ Jesus even begin to believe God only 'saves' a group He has specially created for salvation.

I will pass!!!

 

[Jordon]

And what is the right interpretation?

You wouldn't be interested even if I told you, tulip has diseased you.