Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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I am indeed concerned that tulipists do not manifest the love of God for everyone,
and thus I am glad that you now specify love for this MFWer.
Well, whose son would Adam be!? Was Adam a product of procreation or direct divine creation?
But what is really noteworthy is that Luke's genealogy does not have Jesus descending from Adam -- either physically or spiritually! (Even the fallen angels are referred to in scripture as the "sons of God", don't you know?) However, the promised Messiah in Gen 3:15 descended spiritually from the godly woman's seed.And Gen 3:15 has nothing to do with genealogy! It has to do with spiritual descendants! Under my scenario, Adam could have only been Satan's seed. What other option is there since there is no third seed mentioned in Gen 3:15?
29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).
30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.
31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.
32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).
33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).
34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.
35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.
Both.
As has been resoundingly demonstrated, there are those on this thread who are authentic, genuine, legitimately scholarly and honest in word and spirit.
Aaaannddd those who are sneaky, deceptive, clueless, and just plain junk yard dog mean. Many are gleefully promoting the idea that God intentionally created souls for hell.
But, thank God, it is not particularly difficult to discern one cohort from the other. If you care to pay attention for more than 20 minutes.
Oh...you mean like these passages are all sinister hoaxes too, right?
Prov 16:1
1 To man belong the plans of the heart,
but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
NIV
Prov 16:9
9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines [or directs] his steps.
NIV
Prov 16:33
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.
NIV
Prov 19:21
21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
NIV
Prov 20:24
24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
NIV
Prov 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD;
he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
NIV
Prov 21:30
30 There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan
that can succeed against the LORD.
NIV
Jer 10:23
23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.
NIV
Isa 46:10
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
NIV
Dan 5:23
23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You had the goblets from his temple brought to you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways.
NIV
Acts 2:22-23
22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
ESV
Acts 4:23-28
23 On their release, Peter and John went back to their own people and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. 25 You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
"'Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.'
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
NIV
Rom 9:14-18
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
NIV
I'm definitely not trusting in some kind of pre-birth sovereign lottery hoax little buddy. So good luck and happy landings with that salvific principle.
If they have not been called they were not chosen. This is what they trumpet (not being chosen). Seems
rather self-defeating for a supposed Christian to run around saying such things, but again, what FWer
doesn't contradict themselves? And wanting to shame those who know what God has done for us, well,
what can we expect from the one who claims we cannot know what the Bible says we can? It simply
lets us know that they really do not know while they put on a show proclaiming the opposite.
We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. By this we know that we remain in Him, and He in us: He has given us of His Spirit. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.
Yeah...now you're catching on. Just like Jesus would always take aside his own disciples and explain his parables to them, while leaving the rest in the dark.
Well I intended on "investing" the rest of the day with my headphones on doing just that little buddy. As I did this morning. The revelations have been epically thrilling.
How about you lol?
You defend a very skewed doctrine that is not at all Biblical.God does ALL things to glorify himself and to benefit His people.
I follow the doctrine because all scripture is relevant to believers today! All things in the OT are extremely important to understand because they were written for our benefit by providing examples and instructions for us (Rom 15:4; 1Cor 10:6, 11; Heb 4:11; 2Pet 2:6; Jude 7).
Furthermore, God did these kinds of thing a lot more than three times. Even if we stick with just Judas and the 5 persons mentioned in Rom 9, you forgot Ishmael. Why, oh why, did poor innocent Ishmael not receive the inheritance?
Plus..back in August I wrote two posts proving from both Special and Natural Revelations that divine "determinism" is alive and well! In fact, the very first place in scripture we see this "determinism" played out is in Gen 3:15 when God determined to save Eve and also determined to not save Adam! But before you rush off a lame, knee-jerk, crazy, visceral retort about poor ol' St. Adam, answer this question first: To which of the two seeds did God consign Adam?
https://www.gotquestions.org/Adam-and-Eve-saved.html
My beef is with tulipism, so I do not track who has said what, but only object to anyone denying that God loves everyone.
The concerns of those who accept TULIP—to affirm the sovereignty of God and the inability of souls to earn salvation—are valid,
but the solutions are problematic, because they deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and the moral accountability of sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7), which is tantamount to blasphemy.
The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Unconcern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured by including Scripture supporting MFW, doctrinal harmony is enhanced.