Every one of those persons had ample opportunity to make the right CHOICES.
They CHOSE poorly. Then the inevitable consequences.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
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They CHOSE poorly. Then the inevitable consequences.
Yes he did Mem. Some have to use analogies that have nothing to do with accepting or rejecting the Gospel in order to justify their beliefs. So be it.
God's sovereign choice in the matter is what He chooses to do with those who accept. He chose to give life hence, Lazarus was raised.
Why be an accomplice with the super-determinists in abusing poor Lazarus by forcing him to become yet another Calvinist straw man?
I for one refuse to aid and abet such villainy.
And you just know they are gonna go for "formerly dead Lazarus = pre-birth sovereign lottery" eventually.
Romans 9 is very concerned about the actions of men.
The Jews were adamant and frankly peeved that God was going to the gentiles. How could God have mercy on the dogs and the "un-elect?"
Kinda like the reformed/calvie/tulip crowd of today.
How can God have mercy on ALL? He would be unjust to have mercy on the "un-elect."
Rom 9:14~~What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it!
Rom 9 is a scathing rebuke of reformed/calvie/tulip theory if read properly.
More ignorance on your part. In Romans 9, Paul is explaining the nature and ways of God that flow forth from His sovereignty. God is the Potter. Men are the clay.
Wrong again little buddy. As is your habit.
The overarching theme of Romans 9, lots of 10 and 11 pertains to the NATION Israel.
And you have been wrong about practically everything else contained in these three chapters too. Bummer.
[Jer 18:6 KJV]
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
[Jer 18:7 KJV]
[At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];
[Jer 18:8 KJV]
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
[Jer 18:9 KJV]
And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];
[Jer 18:10 KJV]
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
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Rom 9:21
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[Rom 10:19 KJV]
But I say, Did not Israel (the nation) know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
[Rom 10:21 KJV]
But to Israel (the nation) he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
[Rom 11:2 KJV]
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel (the nation) , saying,
[Rom 11:25 KJV]
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel (the nation) , until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Jer 18
5Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6“Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said [a]that I would bless it.
Its right here.....
Bad CHOICES being made, then comes the justifiable consequences.
[Jer 18:10 KJV]
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
The predominant Romans 9 thesis is salvation by grace through faith little buddy.
And you thought that it was "pre-birth sovereign lottery" huh?
Bummer.
right ... Heb 11:8 tells us Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. So he obeyed God and left Ur by faith, but God also told Abraham in Gen 12:2 I will make of thee a great nation ... a promise Abraham did not believe until Gen 15:6 ... then when Abraham believed (not before) he was declared righteous.
The above scenario / sequence reveals the error of those who claim that natural man cannot believe God's call until the person is "regenerated" ... or "born again" ... or whatever is claimed to be necessary before mankind can simply believe what God tells us in His Word. The only necessity to belief is God's Word ... which is a living Word in and of itself ... when God's Word is believed, God brings increase.
There are many verses of Scripture which when believed do not result in being born again ... but that does not mean there is no increase if or when someone believes Scripture which is not the gospel.
Belief of the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation, is necessary before mankind is born again (made righteous).
A person can believe in the Creator by observing creation ... creation is one of the ways God draws a person ... but that person is not born again just because he or she believes God created the universe and all that is therein. A person is not born again until he or she believes the gospel of Christ.
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Here is what is revealed in NT concerning God imputing righteousness to Abraham as shown in Gen 15:6.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
and what is revealed in NT concerning faith:
Romans 4:4-5
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Those who claim that believing is "works" are in error.
Those who claim that "faith" was imputed to Abraham before he believed have yet to provide the verse showing what they claim.
Those who claim the only path natural man can take when God reveals Himself is the path of hate, rejection, hearing the gospel message as foolishness are the ones who have not considered the fullness of Scripture.
Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Like I said in Post 18,702 ... Abraham left Ur of the Chaldees by faith when God called him in Gen 12.
But Abraham did not believe the promise of God that he would be a great nation. Abraham did not believe that promise until Gen 15 ... which was years later. And it is when Abraham believed this promise that Abraham was counted righteous.
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This is how the meat of the word gets buried.
To the reformed crowd Roman 9,10 and 11 is all about us dead folks that can't choose God. God's Sovereignty determines His elect. Period. End of story.
Lazarus was a dead man that God resuscitated. Lazarus could not make a choice. Therefore, we are dead men and can't make a choice. Period. End of story.
Everything That is truly being taught is buried under a 1000 ft of ashes via wood, hay and stubble ........All from the reformed theory.
Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
you believe Adam was "consigned" to the seed of satan ... however, God declares Adam was His son.
under your scenario, satan is in the genealogical line of the Lord Jesus Christ ... such a ridiculous notion, but one for which I have had to correct you many times. I'm sure satan loves that you include him in the lineage of the Lord Jesus Christ. way to go, Rufus.
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Feel free to expound upon it, but Romans 9 deals largely with the sovereignty of God in the affairs of man.