Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[posthuman]

Funny how determinism thinks it has a lock on the word "efficacious" and uses it pejoratively by attaching it to human volition.

Only in a deterministic mind is it pejorative. I'm actually OK with it. It does what God designed it to do.

Efficacious Grace Offer <> Efficacious Volitional Receipt (aka faith-obedience) <> Efficacious Grace Salvation.

((not disagreeing))

Speedbump - -

Romans 10:17-18​

So then faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: ​

"Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."​

​

Romans 11:7-10 ​

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written: ​

"God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see​

and ears that they should not hear,​

to this very day."​

And David says:​

"Let their table become a snare and a trap,​

a stumbling block and a recompense to them.​

Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,​

and bow down their back always."​

​

The Spirit writing through Paul attributes all this hardening by the hand of God Himself nationally to Israel, and every nation is made up of individuals. it cannot be honestly argued that it is merely national, and not also indivual, or the purpose of election could not stand, being decided by men who make up the nation, rather than God Who appoints all things.

elsewhere in the same text we have the examples of Pharoah, Jacob and Esau - - all individuals not nations - - saying that God will have mercy on whom He will.

even here He says, the elect obtained, and the rest were blinded. that encompasses individuals within a nation, and both election and having been blinded are passively received by men, not actively accomplished by us.


it is never simple; it's the will of omniscient, omnipotent God in us, turning all things to the good of those who believe.

 

[posthuman]

the will of omniscient, omnipotent God in us, turning all things to the good of those who believe.

it is for my good that my salvation rests on Christ, not my own shoulders

therefore will i cast any crown i receive at His feet

 

[NightTwister]

Manifestly evident on this thread. In spades.

It certainly is.

 

[HeIsHere]

the unsolved problem isn't that if God can sovereignly save why doesn't He save everyone - - it's why does He save anyone at all?

Lol, built in assumptions as per usual by those who adhere to "Reformed" doctrine.

And that is absolutely the problem in your soteriology because reality some are saved and others left in their sins when he could have saved them all.

The real Gospel of salvation according to scripture rightly interpreted has none of these philosophical questions.

 

[HeIsHere]

((not disagreeing))

Speedbump - -

Romans 10:17-18​

So then faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: ​

"Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."​

​

Romans 11:7-10 ​

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written: ​

"God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see​

and ears that they should not hear,​

to this very day."​

And David says:​

"Let their table become a snare and a trap,​

a stumbling block and a recompense to them.​

Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,​

and bow down their back always."​

​

The Spirit writing through Paul attributes all this hardening by the hand of God Himself nationally to Israel, and every nation is made up of individuals. it cannot be honestly argued that it is merely national, and not also indivual, or the purpose of election could not stand, being decided by men who make up the nation, rather than God Who appoints all things.

elsewhere in the same text we have the examples of Pharoah, Jacob and Esau - - all individuals not nations - - saying that God will have mercy on whom He will.

even here He says, the elect obtained, and the rest were blinded. that encompasses individuals within a nation, and both election and having been blinded are passively received by men, not actively accomplished by us.


it is never simple; it's the will of omniscient, omnipotent God in us, turning all things to the good of those who believe.

This is where all means all it seems, funny how that works.

 

[HeIsHere]

Wasn't physical life "imposed" upon you or did you give God permission to decree your existence?

Rather than making faulty analogies and doing this apple to oranges comparisons just stick with the correct plan of salvation which is clearly given in scripture.

Faith exercised in Good News of Christ Jesus then regeneration.
Regeneration never precedes faith

Full stop.

 

[studier]

Well...something has to effectually trigger a response to the gospel. Since YOU and your ilk despise the idea that God's efficacious, then it must be your "freewill". So, no one is using "efficacious" as a pejorative but merely taking the FWer's steadfast rejection of the nature of God's saving, rescuing power (grace) to its only logical conclusion.

It's actually kind of amazing how you read past how we biblically and appropriately place God's Grace first in order. It actually kind of reminds me of the 2Cor3 veiled mind and heart we've been discussing - what a little internalized error can turn into...

 

[studier]

It's the depravity of the human heart that motivates the carnal desire to be like God -- or in FWers' case -- to be better than God since they can do things that God himself cannot do.

It seems to me that the desire to be like God - since He created us in His likeness - is really not depravity or carnal at root and may have been designed into His angelic and human creation by Him for an ultimately glorious purpose. And that design was willfully perverted in the angelic realm and then used to tempt the volition of the first woman into perversion.

And now, in Christ, in Spirit, in the only relationship - one of volitional faith-obedience - within which it can be truly accomplished in all of its glory, we have several commands made to our volition to pursue this ultimate glory - NKJ Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children - NKJ Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. - NKJ 1 Peter 1:15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,

To be better than God is such an empty argument. One would think even you would at some point realize how little weight and credibility your false statements have.

 

[studier]

Yeah...but look at the really bright side: Very, very few libertarian freewillers won't make it through Heaven's pearly gates either.

At least you've in stealth accepted some correction from libertine to libertarian. A very small indication of light doing some piercing.

 

[studier]

They only see the Savior in their own reflection!

Actually, it works like this: NKJ 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[studier]

Wasn't physical life "imposed" upon you or did you give God permission to decree your existence?

One simple rhetorical question and at least 4 logical fallacies. Empty argument.

 

[studier]

Oh wait...let me come up with a oft-repeated, tiresome, childish FWer refrain: You're cherry-picking isolated verses taken out of context. Anything else you have in your impoverished grab bag of tricks?

You've actually proven the diagnosis of the opening verse and more of the Proverb with your response.

 

[studier]

Informed consent.

It's been a while since I read that phrase. It's a good one!

 

[Genez]

Then why do you hate correction so much? Oh.

You are on Ignore.

 

[cv5]

Oh wait...let me come up with a oft-repeated, tiresome, childish FWer refrain: You're cherry-picking isolated verses taken out of context. Anything else you have in your impoverished grab bag of tricks?

Yes. Have you ever asked yourself why it is that so many Calvinists possess such a savage spirit of condemnation?

Pro 8:36 - But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

 

[posthuman]

And that is absolutely the problem in your soteriology because reality some are saved and others left in their sins when he could have saved them all.

tell me, if you can, which one of us deserves to be saved?

there is no existential 'problem of evil' in the world. that is a carnal mischaracterization of reality, used by the lost to attack the character of God.

what cannot be explained on earth is the existence of goodness.

in exactly the same way, God's mercy towards us is wholly undeserved - - all glory belongs to Him, zero to us.

His Way is perfect, and none of us can boast.

 

[posthuman]

And that is absolutely the problem in your soteriology because reality some are saved and others left in their sins when he could have saved them all.

we must always remember that Salvation is grace, not wages.

 

[Magenta]

tell me, if you can, which one of us deserves to be saved?
there is no existential 'problem of evil' in the world. that is a carnal mischaracterization
of reality, used by the lost to attack the character of God.
what cannot be explained on earth is the existence of goodness.
in exactly the same way, God's mercy towards us is wholly undeserved - - all glory belongs to Him, zero to us.
His Way is perfect, and none of us can boast.

In their theology, they deserve to be saved for making the right volitional choice.

And FWers are known for attacking the character of God. They do it frequently and with great ease.

 

[posthuman]

This is where all means all it seems, funny how that works.

please read again what the Spirit says.

the word has gone out to all. everyone heard.
the elect received it and the rest were blinded.

what it does not say is those who received it were later elected.

elections occur before being sworn into office, not afterwards.

it's a fact we will have to learn to deal with.

 

[studier]

((not disagreeing))

Speedbump - -

Romans 10:17-18​

So then faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: ​

"Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world."​

​

Romans 11:7-10 ​

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written: ​

"God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see​

and ears that they should not hear,​

to this very day."​

And David says:​

"Let their table become a snare and a trap,​

a stumbling block and a recompense to them.​

Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,​

and bow down their back always."​

​

The Spirit writing through Paul attributes all this hardening by the hand of God Himself nationally to Israel, and every nation is made up of individuals. it cannot be honestly argued that it is merely national, and not also indivual, or the purpose of election could not stand, being decided by men who make up the nation, rather than God Who appoints all things.

elsewhere in the same text we have the examples of Pharoah, Jacob and Esau - - all individuals not nations - - saying that God will have mercy on whom He will.

even here He says, the elect obtained, and the rest were blinded. that encompasses individuals within a nation, and both election and having been blinded are passively received by men, not actively accomplished by us.


it is never simple; it's the will of omniscient, omnipotent God in us, turning all things to the good of those who believe.

Getting late so maybe more tomorrow. I'll touch on Rom10 now. If you want to follow up, I'll leave it for you to do so. One piece at a time so no Rom9 or 11 tonight, which actually address hardening.

I don't see a speedbump in Rom10, at least not for the formula I laid out that you seem to say you're not disagreeing with. If there's any speedbump here, it's more of a wall to stop the thinking that God is preventing belief-obedience. By Rom10:3 Paul has identified the issue being one not of zeal but of a lack of knowledge and submission.

Rom10:16-17 and 21 says the issue is disobedience not God hardening or withholding grace or preventing hearing. 10:18-21 show God's persistent efforts at turning Israel and the irony of others who did not have all of Israel's grace provision finding God while Israel turned from Him.

I don't see the hardening I think you're saying is in these verses. I see a people who are described as disobedient-unbelieving & oppositional and God doing several things to turn them back to Him and at the time of writing, to bring them to faith-obedience in His Gospel of His Son.