Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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John 8 verses 43, 47, Acts 13 verse 48, Romans 8 verse 8, John 8 verse 43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.” “Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God.
 
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There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26
 
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posthuman said:
..


the actual thing that passage in Hebrews is referring to is the report of the spies sent into Canaan to search out the land, Numbers 13-14

they did not disobey the command to go, nor to search out, to return nor to report.
they did all those things commanded of them.

Joshua and Caleb believed, and were not afraid.
but the others did not believe that God would Himself go before them, and drive out their enemies before them. so the people again repeated The Lie - - that God had only brought them out of Egypt in order to murder them.

that is the unbelief, and because of that unbelief, they wandered 40 years, instead of walking behind while God went before them doing the work. and that is the work: to believe He is saving, not murdering you, and thus follow Him where He goes.
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And the discussion is re: belief being parallel to obedience because unbelief is parallel to disobedience. The lesson of this parallelism is established and carried in depth earlier in Heb3 and carried into Heb4.

Agree?
 
posthuman said:
my question -
​
2 Corinthians 3:15-16​
But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.​
​
Who puts the veil over the heart, and is able to take it away?
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No possible answers in the context?
Moses put the veil there so they couldn't see the fading glory of the OC 2Cor3:13-14.
When they turn to the Lord the veil is removed in Christ 2Cor3:14 and although not absolutely clear here, the agent seems to be the Lord the Spirit of 2Cor3:17. In Christ v.14 could also be by Christ, but I think in Christ is more likely, as do most but not all translators.
So, they actively turn to the Lord > they're placed in Christ & the veil is removed likely by the Lord the Spirit & they have freedom > they're being metamorphosized/transfigured/transformed into a likeness of the Lord 2Cor3:18
 
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Rufus said:
Exactly! In fact, since the the unregenerate heart is filled ungodly desires, God must first instill the Fear of Himself into such hearts so that they will repent! To Fear the Lord is to to turn away from evil, which is what repentance is all about. When one turns or shuns evil, then this implies he turns to what is good, holy and righteous.
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Indeed, Rufus, and the greatest and most grievous sin that we repent of is the sin of trusting in ourselves and our works for salvation
rather than trusting in Christ.
 
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cv5 said:
The better question:
Why and how were 3000 Jews saved in Acts 2 and untold millions throughout the ages to this present day?

Answering this question will resolve yours. Gods OFFER is still pending and FREELY given, and many are they who CHOOSE to RECEIVE it in good FAITH.

"Already believing" not a prerequisite BTW. Never has been, never will be.
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their veil was removed, and the seed fell on good soil.
 
studier said:
Moses put the veil there so they couldn't see the fading glory of the OC 2Cor3:13-14.
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Moses put the veil over his own face - between himself and those who heard him. likewise then in the like figure God put the veil between their hearts and the testimony that would renew them ((vis Isaiah 6:10, lest they turn and be healed))

studier said:
When they turn to the Lord the veil is removed in Christ 2Cor3:14 and although not absolutely clear here, the agent seems to be the Lord the Spirit of 2Cor3:17.
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Paul writes not 'after they turn' but 'when' - not entirely clear about an order of events, but indicating a relative simultaneity?

Isaiah seems to indicate this sequence:
  1. hear/see/understand
  2. turn
  3. be healed
and the veil deafening of ear preventing step 1.

:coffee::unsure:

so their is both an element of the agency of the will, in turning, but also a prerequisite sovereignty of the action of God, opening the eyes to see, the ears to hear, and the heart to understand.
 
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Rufus said:
Not only that but our aspiring bible scholar got the the whole faith-obedience thing backwards! Why am I not surprised? Studier essentially said (to paraphrase) that there's no faith without obedience. That's interesting. Yet, Hebrews doesn't tell us that without obedience it's impossible to please God. But it does teach that without faith it's impossible to please Him (Heb 11:6).

But there's even more. Hebrews also teaches that the disobedient Hebrews were not able to enter God's rest (the Land) ultimately because of their lack of faith (Heb 3:19-4:2).

These FWers can't even get the fundamentals of the Christian Faith right, let alone Studier's so-called "advanced spiritual truth". :rolleyes:
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Lazuras is triple dead remember.
 
Kroogz said:
Honestly, one cannot go beyond the starting line with the reformed/calvies/tulip folks. Their doctrine is skewed from the get go. Skewed from the foundation.

If the very foundation is incorrect, every doctrine after that is incorrect.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for ALL. We get that wrong.......everything else will be wrong.




Just imagine, this is evil according to reformed/calvie/tulip theory.......

Recognize that you are a sinner. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. That goes for you and everyone else. ALL.
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Absolutely agree.

He died for ALL clearly stated multiple times in scripture.

It is a very evil theory and it deserves to be reviled.
 
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posthuman said:
Moses put the veil over his own face - between himself and those who heard him. likewise then in the like figure God put the veil between their hearts and the testimony that would renew them ((vis Isaiah 6:10, lest they turn and be healed))



Paul writes not 'after they turn' but 'when' - not entirely clear about an order of events, but indicating a relative simultaneity?

Isaiah seems to indicate this sequence:
  1. hear/see/understand
  2. turn
  3. be healed
and the veil deafening of ear preventing step 1.

:coffee::unsure:

so their is both an element of the agency of the will, in turning, but also a prerequisite sovereignty of the action of God, opening the eyes to see, the ears to hear, and the heart to understand.
Click to expand...

Isaiah 6:10

Just like God does not arbitrarily select some for salvation, neither does God harden arbitrarily, these verses are connected to judgement and not a universal statement about the estate of all fallen man.
 
posthuman said:
Moses put the veil over his own face - between himself and those who heard him. likewise then in the like figure God put the veil between their hearts and the testimony that would renew them ((vis Isaiah 6:10, lest they turn and be healed))



Paul writes not 'after they turn' but 'when' - not entirely clear about an order of events, but indicating a relative simultaneity?

Isaiah seems to indicate this sequence:
  1. hear/see/understand
  2. turn
  3. be healed
and the veil deafening of ear preventing step 1.

:coffee::unsure:

so their is both an element of the agency of the will, in turning, but also a prerequisite sovereignty of the action of God, opening the eyes to see, the ears to hear, and the heart to understand.
Click to expand...

Here's how I see it:

Moses put on the veil which in turn created a blindness re: the temporary OC. That blindness of mind/thought re: the OC 2Cor3:14 is the veil on their heart 2Cor3:15. It's internalized misunderstanding.

I don't see it as judicial hardening as in Isaiah.

Although there is the look of simultaneity in Paul's verbs, word order looks to make the active voice turning first and the subjunctive shows potential which IMO shows human volition. The Gospel of Christ - the ministry of righteousness 2Cor3:9 - is assumed before the active turning. The ministry of righteousness concerns the exceeding glory of Christ over Moses and the end of the glory of Moses.

Jesus was dealing with this when here John5:46-47.
 
Magenta said:
And also, that is not what you claimed at first, saying you had simply added a verse, when you added
a verse and inserted something else into it. So you come across looking dishonest, and rightfully so.
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Well... Your observational abilities about him sets me free to know when you have one about me is equally biased and hateful.

Calvinism is for the bitter hearted who want to remain on top of the rest by thinking they know better.
They must maintain that feeling of superiority to have their idea of peace in their lives.

I am learning something here after all.
 
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