You missed the point. Jesus has been lifted up. Since He has been, "all men" will be drawn to Him. How have people who have lived since the cross but never heard of Jesus been drawn by Him in His act of being lifted up?
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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The concept is real and words were given to describe it.
To say grace is irresistible is an oxymoron.
For it is by grace that we resist what we must resist.
Irresistible grace was a quick fix solution for a dilemma that they could not solve concerning the depravity of man as they knew it to be.
In turn... They did the exact same thing they saw the Catholic Church do with made up stuff to appear to have an answer for a problem.
A classic example of the RCC would be Immaculate Conception.
That was a quick fix solution in trying to explain to peasants how Jesus could have been born without a sin nature.
No one questioned it for a while.
Just like irresistible grace was not questioned later on by the TULIP people.
Irresistible grace is an equivalent of making God into being a seduction master.
But, to be seduced?
One must have something innate to your nature to accept it.
And, if that is so?
There goes "total depravity."
Living in well accepted error gives one a feeling of knowing what he is doing. False security.
Humility is the ability to be corrected, which can initially be destabilizing, until needed knowledge is gained.
That is why some hate correction. It destabilizes their life.
.......
John6:44 in context doesn't say all men drawn will be raised, though it can seem like it, because Jesus goes on to qualify that men who hear and learn and believe are the ones who come and will be raised. The saved were drawn & enabled by teaching to come, believe, be saved in it's initial sense.
IMO John12:32 needs to be taken as Jesus stated and Jesus' drawing via His crucifixion would become universal and have in concept the similar qualifiers as John6 - men are drawn by God teaching & those who hear and learn can come and then believe.
Also, IMO, all the "distributive" type wording is unnecessary and can confuse the simplicity of the language. I don't normally use or accept such modifiers.
I know the point but Preachers keep preaching about the Cross and it continues to reach all men.
Someone who has never heard about Jesus hears the Gospel preached [DBR] Jesus is being lifted up over and over.
It's called the Great Commission and commanded by Christ Himself to fulfill.
Firstly...
I do not always agree with RBT.
It will happen time to time.
But, what I thrive on?
He makes you think about so many different things that will never get mentioned anywhere else that I know of.
He expands your venue for thought and problem-solving.
I may not agree to his conclusions while he was teaching on a subject.
But, all the exegesis he gave served as building materials for constructing something I would never have thought of without
seeing what his exegesis was extracting for his rationale. The man was a genius who never died, for his recorded messages
make it seem as if he is still alive on earth. The Word of God properly taught is manifested in timelessness. It is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow.
. . . . .
Even if all are drawn, I do not see anywhere where it says that everyone who is drawn is given to Jesus by God... and it is those who are given who will come.
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe
stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of
God’s one and only Son." John 3:18
Why did Jesus say that those who do not believe were standing condemned already?
Already condemned? Not condemned when they refused to believe?
Because that condemnation took place at an earlier point in time.
At the point when they had rejected the drawing of God!
The same drawing that would have brought them to the point of finding themselves able to believe in Christ!
Not believing is a sign of someone having rejected the drawing of God!
......
The particular group is not in the language as you'd like it to be. The only group in the masculine plural is men (mankind - people).
To claim Jesus only draws those who hear of Him reduces His words to limited human ideas. He said He would draw all men - not just those reached by proclamation. The Spirit’s work isn’t limited to our understanding.
Consider that Jesus doesn't say:
- “All who hear of Me”
- “All elect from every category”
- “All kinds of men”
What verses explain what you have said concerning John 6:44?
For John 12:32, are you equating the drawing of God with the drawing of the cross? The drawing of God is universal?
All men according to you means every single person. Some people throughout history haven't heard about the cross. How do they fit in "all men"?
Please don't misunderstand me. IMO there's not one person here or in most congregations who could not benefit in some way from listening to him.
My question may be answered in part from combining both your posts. As I understood your first post, you seemed to be saying we're all still learning and there are times we need to rethink things we've believed to be true. Now in this post you say, which I've read you say before, that there are times you disagree with him.
None of this diminishes the level of teaching he provided.
My question was whether you're also listening to RBThieme III who took over his dad's pulpit.
The particular group is just as viable as an all-inclusive group. Both meet the requirement of plurality.
If you choose to exclude the other groups you need an explanation for those since the cross who have never heard of Christ. How do these fit into all men being drawn by Christ?
Oh....
I tried... Bobby holds no interest for me.
I wish he did. But his dad was so great, I feel it would be wrong to see him as a replacement.
God always knew that RBT Jr's words would be captured on audio.
When RBT taught years ago, the Lord knew the message would be also for those hearing it reproduced today.
After all.
Outside of those who have heard the Gospel preached to those who haven't the Bible explains God has manifested Himself to them through various ways including the consciousness. Christ as the WORD Creator of all things is being lifted up.
Scripture says that those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God, and,
those who hear will live, so it is Biblical, unlike what you claim, which, as usual, you have contradicted what Scripture says.
John 5 v 24-25 ~ Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life. Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
All men are drawn.
But, God will not send in missionaries where His drawing is being rejected.
Those who rejected God's drawing may not hear about the Cross.
But! They will be shown they are still without excuse!
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness
and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since
what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain
to them. For since the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities—his eternal
power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what
has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20
It is the drawing of God of all men that brings men who will keep on accepting it to the point of the Cross being shown to them.
Those who never hear will be responsible for their snubbing of God's drawing them.
What you are talking about...the revelation of God through creation and conscience...has been available throughout history. That isn't the result of Christ being lifted up.
I earlier provided the verses I would be looking at in context for John6:44 - John6:43-47.
In John12:33 John tells us Jesus was speaking of the crucifixion. There's more re: Jesus in context from John12. So, though His crucifixion was His main point in those few verses, there's far more stated as to who He is and what is taking place and what will take place.
Nor is it the gospel. I wonder why this is so difficult for people to understand.
So, let me get this straight:
If you were the Pastor and decided to precede your normal service using the Apostles' Creed, you would first begin with a disclaimer as follows:
Folks, before we begin let's recite the Apostles' Creed.
But please remember, it was not written by the Apostles'.
So, please ignore just a couple other man made idealisms and stick directly to the Bible
OK, now repeat after me!
I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth.. . . . . . . . . . .