Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Mem]

There it is again....."the plan".
Do you see it?

Rom 9:11 -
(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that (the-purpose-of-God-according-to-election) might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

He calls the purpose of God according to election to stand not by works (but by faith that Jacob exhibited in his willingness to obtain it for himself as opposed to Esau's disregard for...)?

How about that?

 

[Magenta]

@Cameron143 in response to an earlier post of yours...

Galatians 2 v 20-21 I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by Faith in the Son of God, Who Loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not set aside the Grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the law, Christ died for nothing.

 

[Mem]

Do you see it?

If only saying it was as easy as seeing it!

 

[sawdust]

Election is choosing a particular people.

Election is choosing saved people for the purpose of God. God does not elect the unsaved.

According to Reformed theology there is absolutely nothing particular about the people God elects, He chooses whoever and they are unable to resist His grace. If they have some particular quality then Reformed theology contradicts itself.

 

[sawdust]

All four of which Christ Himself provides for us

Amen.

 

[sawdust]

BTW, far from being a villain Jacob was one of the greatest heroes in all of the Bible.
And I believe he was an exceedingly righteous man......to a fault. He was a brilliant man, very calculating, extremely conscientious. And exceedingly careful and diligent in everything that he did.

Because of course he had a very high view of God and understood the profound gravitas of the covenant. And measured his steps accordingly......

I've never considered Jacob a villain although I'm not sure I would go so far as to say a righteous man "to a fault".

Nevertheless, I believe he loved righteousness and had a profound love and respect for the Lord God.

 

[sawdust]

God chose a people and placed them in Christ

Being placed in Christ is the choice. You keep seeing the choice as being saved. God does not choose who to save except by way of declaring He will save believers. He does not choose who believes.

 

[sawdust]

The problem I have with men employing that volition to seek God is because of his fallen nature

But it has been explained so many times how grace initiates that seeking. Why do you find it so impossible for God to place a fallen man into a position as if he is not fallen in order to make his own volitional choice between light and dark, good and evil, love and hate? He can raise a man from the dead but He is not able to control the sin nature in the flesh????

Being spiritually alive is no guarantee His word will not be rejected leading to sin, Adam is proof of that, so it would be folly to regenerate a man before he has declared himself yea or nay in respect to the Gospel.

God saves believers, He does not save us so we can believe.

 

[GWH]

At the least, I consider it the ability to wish, and I believe that a wish is synonymous with a hope.

Yes, wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin' and seekin' are all closely related and essentially synonymous with faith/will,
but they are reasonable rather than blind, because there are more good reasons to believe the NT Gospel than to believe atheism.

 

[Cameron143]

Election is choosing saved people for the purpose of God. God does not elect the unsaved.

According to Reformed theology there is absolutely nothing particular about the people God elects, He chooses whoever and they are unable to resist His grace. If they have some particular quality then Reformed theology contradicts itself.

That's not a reformed teaching, but at least you believe election is about choosing people.

 

[Cameron143]

Being placed in Christ is the choice. You keep seeing the choice as being saved. God does not choose who to save except by way of declaring He will save believers. He does not choose who believes.

Being placed in Christ is the choice God makes. Who is the whom God did foreknow? What does it mean that all the Father has given to Christ will come to Him? Who was given to Him? And when?

 

[sawdust]

That's not a reformed teaching, but at least you believe election is about choosing people.

I said election is about God choosing saved people for His purpose. It is not simply choosing people. That tells us nothing about election.

Reformed teaching is God chooses who will be saved without any respect to their person so it cannot be "particular" people He saves because there is nothing particular about them according to the Reformed.

 

[sawdust]

Being placed in Christ is the choice God makes.

That is what I said. That is election. Not all believers were placed in Christ so it is not a choice to save but a choice to do with whatever the Lord wants with the saved.

 

[Cameron143]

But it has been explained so many times how grace initiates that seeking. Why do you find it so impossible for God to place a fallen man into a position as if he is not fallen in order to make his own volitional choice between light and dark, good and evil, love and hate? He can raise a man from the dead but He is not able to control the sin nature in the flesh????

Being spiritually alive is no guarantee His word will not be rejected leading to sin, Adam is proof of that, so it would be folly to regenerate a man before he has declared himself yea or nay in respect to the Gospel.

God saves believers, He does not save us so we can believe.

Now you've introduced something else. Everyone assents to God drawing first. But it doesn't say He draws all. And scripture never says God controls the sin nature to allow a choice. It does say He takes out the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh and a new spirit. It also says He places His Spirit within us...Ezekiel 36:26-27...so that we can walk in obedience. This is the new covenant promise.

Before this, we weren't subject to the law and couldn't be...Romans 8:7. So until God does as He promised, no one can volitionally choose Him.

 

[Cameron143]

But it has been explained so many times how grace initiates that seeking. Why do you find it so impossible for God to place a fallen man into a position as if he is not fallen in order to make his own volitional choice between light and dark, good and evil, love and hate? He can raise a man from the dead but He is not able to control the sin nature in the flesh????

Being spiritually alive is no guarantee His word will not be rejected leading to sin, Adam is proof of that, so it would be folly to regenerate a man before he has declared himself yea or nay in respect to the Gospel.

God saves believers, He does not save us so we can believe.

When we believe, we evidence that God has indeed done a work in us, has transformed us, has converted us. Until He has, no one believes.

 

[Cameron143]

That is what I said. That is election. Not all believers were placed in Christ so it is not a choice to save but a choice to do with whatever the Lord wants with the saved.

Being placed in Christ occurs in eternity past. Whatever you think it involves, it involves God placing people in Christ. Just as humanity, though large, is a finite number of all placed in Adam, there was a predetermined number of people placed in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Now you've introduced something else. Everyone assents to God drawing first. But it doesn't say He draws all. And scripture never says God controls the sin nature to allow a choice. It does say He takes out the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh and a new spirit. It also says He places His Spirit within us...Ezekiel 36:26-27...so that we can walk in obedience. This is the new covenant promise.

Before this, we weren't subject to the law and couldn't be...Romans 8:7. So until God does as He promised, no one can volitionally choose Him.

So would you consider the drawing by God and the taking out the heart of stone and giving of flesh and a new spirit, His Spirit within us as in Ezk 36:26-27 as the one and same operation ? I actually do !

 

[brightfame52]

Being placed in Christ occurs in eternity past. Whatever you think it involves, it involves God placing people in Christ. Just as humanity, though large, is a finite number of all placed in Adam, there was a predetermined number of people placed in Christ.

I agree, their placement in Christ is before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4, so I believe Christ was their spiritual head prior to adam being their natural head, in the purpose of God.

 

[BillyBob]

Election is choosing saved people for the purpose of God. God does not elect the unsaved.

According to Reformed theology there is absolutely nothing particular about the people God elects, He chooses whoever and they are unable to resist His grace. If they have some particular quality then Reformed theology contradicts itself.

Maybe he chose them because it was His will, not their will....

 

[cv5]

I said election is about God choosing saved people for His purpose. It is not simply choosing people. That tells us nothing about election.

Reformed teaching is God chooses who will be saved without any respect to their person so it cannot be "particular" people He saves because there is nothing particular about them according to the Reformed.

God choosing saved people for His purpose

Basically agree. God is choosing those who choose to receive the offer, sealing the COVENANT.

There are no other options or contingencies. It's the one and only way, "the perfect plan".