Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

Prov 4:23
3 Above all else , guard your heart,
for it is the wellspring of life.
NIV

Whoa! Who would have ever thunk!? How come man's sacred, sacrosanct, inviolable, sovereign volition is not called to be guarded!?

God can not coerce it.

If He could?

Everyone would be saved.

 

[BillyBob]

Not an answer!

You guys do not have one.

It is just a gut feeling.

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
I would say that these men were already saved, when they fell trembling before the Lord asking "WHAT MUST WE DO". They knew that they could not save themselves. This seems to be a truth which escapes FWers!

 

[Genez]

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
I would say that these men were already saved, when they fell trembling before the Lord asking "WHAT MUST WE DO". They knew that they could not save themselves. This seems to be a truth which escapes FWers!

Double talk..... more of the same.

You have no answers.

They were asking how to be saved from their dire situation.
What happened to them was punishable by death.

In return, it gave Paul and Silas an opportunity to present the Gospel.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, choosing believing individuals and allocating them to their time and purpose. God saves believers and chooses (elects) what to do with them and where to place them. Election is for a purpose and that purpose is to be in Christ (Church) or to lead a people out of slavery (Moses) or to make a nation from which would come the Messiah (Jacob aka Israel) or to be the father of many nations (Abraham) or to be in the Garden (Adam) or to be the sole surviving family of a great flood (Noah).

If God chooses people for salvation He doesn't need to foreknow them, for who and what they are, is completely irrelevant. He can get the same result by closing His eyes and simply pointing .. you, you, you and you!

Picking you, you, and you is selection; not election. Election is choosing a particular people. Selection is choosing from amongst a group of people. For example, God, in choosing Israel, didn't choose from amongst the peoples already existing in the world. Instead, he chose Abraham and created a people in Him. Likewise, God chose a people and placed them in Christ, and spiritually, they are begotten through Him.

Still interested in your answer to my questions concerning the potter.

 

[BillyBob]

Double talk..... more of the same.

You have no answers.

They were asking how to be saved from their dire situation.

In return, it Paul and Silas an opportunity to present the Gospel.

The grace of God washes a man clean, it does not give him the soap and water in order for him to make himself clean.

**MDB**

 

[Genez]

Picking you, you, and you is selection; not election. Election is choosing a particular people. Selection is choosing from amongst a group of people. For example, God, in choosing Israel, didn't choose from amongst the peoples already existing in the world. Instead, he chose Abraham and created a people in Him. Likewise, God chose a people and placed them in Christ, and spiritually, they are begotten through Him.

Still interested in your answer to my questions concerning the potter.

We have been elected for being the Bride of Christ.

As Eve was in Adam's side, we were chosen IN HIM before the foundations of the earth to become the Lord's Bride!

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Ephesians 1:4​

We are now like Eve was before her bodily substance was removed from Adam's body!
What we are to being right now is hidden in Christ!

What we are to become bodily is right now hidden in His glorious body!

God seated us with Him in heaven! In His Body!

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.' Ephesians 2:6​

​

​

In Christ....

 

[Genez]

The grace of God washes a man clean, it does not give him the soap and water in order for him to make himself clean.

**MDB**

Sit down and rest, please.

 

[Kroogz]

I would say that these men were already saved, when they fell trembling before the Lord asking "WHAT MUST WE DO".

What must I do to quench my thirst? Drink water and your thirst will be quenched.


@BillyBob ~~~Your thirst was quenched when you asked me "what must I do."


Silly stuff.

 

[cv5]

The verse He hated Esau is also in the Bible so it's no assumption.

He certainly didn't create Esau just so He could destroy him for God takes no pleasure in death. God would have to be schizoid to create people solely for their destruction.

If you cannot extrapolate what I think it means from all the conversations we have had, I wonder if you have listened and understood what I have said at all?

Election is about God choosing what to do with those He saves. In the case of Jacob and Esau, it was about from whom would come the nation of Israel. God's desire for Esau to become the father of Israel was spoken of in typical Eastern terms of extremes. "Esau He hated, Jacob he loved" signifies there can be no question as to who Israel is as a nation.

Esau had contempt for and had every intention to abandon the promises.
Jacob revered them, "held onto" them with every fiber of his being, understanding the profound significance.

Rebecca was perfectly well aware that Esau inheriting the mantle of family high priest would surely shipwreck God's plan of salvation to be transmitted through the conduit of the nation Israel. As did Jacob. As did Isaac in the recesses of his heart.

BTW, the peculiar special clothing Jacob wore in the presence of Isaac were very likely........the holy priestly garments passed down through the family. That were infused with a pleasant aroma of incense. That Jacob absconded from Esau's stuff........and wore in the presence of his father.
I happen to believe that everyone actually knew what was going down.

This unique pleasant aroma of course was the same phenomenon that was mandated by the Mosaic law for the priests during those days. Priests and priests alone possessed a very specific aroma associated with them........the precise formulation of the incense that God designed. So that everyone knew when a priest was in the vicinity.

This specific unique formulation that God forbid anyone else to make or use.
Which MAY (debatable) have been the reason for the untimely deaths of Nadab and Abihu......they attempted to burn strange fire before the Lord a.k.a. the wrong incense formula.

Bringing it all home we realize that as Christians, WE likewise need all four elements the High Priest required during the day of atonement BEFORE he could meet God face to face in the holy of holy's (Leviticus 16).....

-Holy garments
-Bathed in water and cleansed
-Blood of the sacrifice
-Pleasing aroma of the incense

All four of which Christ Himself provides for us.....

 

[cv5]

We have been elected for being the Bride of Christ.

As Eve was in Adam's side, we were chosen IN HIM before the foundations of the earth to become the Lord's Bride!

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Ephesians 1:4​

We are now like Eve was before her bodily substance was removed from Adam's body!
What we are to being right now is hidden in Christ!

What we are to become bodily is right now hidden in His glorious body!

God seated us with Him in heaven! In His Body!

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.' Ephesians 2:6​

​

​

In Christ....

The elect are those that come when called, say I do, and take this commitment seriously for the rest of their lives. As a result of this commitment, sanctification proceeds while you wait in faith, patiently, for the Bridegroom to make His appearance.

Pre-birth lotteries, shanghaiing, lobotomies, kidnappings, shotgun weddings........pretty much anything the determinist believe........is preposterous unbiblical hogwash.

 

[lrs68]

It's clear you know little about reformed churches and denominations.

I hope so since I only know people from them that explains it to me. I would not preach in a Reformed Church because they make too much up and I only preach the Gospel.

 

[cv5]

The verse He hated Esau is also in the Bible so it's no assumption.

He certainly didn't create Esau just so He could destroy him for God takes no pleasure in death. God would have to be schizoid to create people solely for their destruction.

If you cannot extrapolate what I think it means from all the conversations we have had, I wonder if you have listened and understood what I have said at all?

Election is about God choosing what to do with those He saves. In the case of Jacob and Esau, it was about from whom would come the nation of Israel. God's desire for Esau to become the father of Israel was spoken of in typical Eastern terms of extremes. "Esau He hated, Jacob he loved" signifies there can be no question as to who Israel is as a nation.

BTW, far from being a villain Jacob was one of the greatest heroes in all of the Bible.
And I believe he was an exceedingly righteous man......to a fault. He was a brilliant man, very calculating, extremely conscientious. And exceedingly careful and diligent in everything that he did.

Because of course he had a very high view of God and understood the profound gravitas of the covenant. And measured his steps accordingly......

 

[cv5]

It's clear you know little about reformed churches and denominations.

You couldn't drag me into a Reformed Church with a 20 mule team......

 

[Cameron143]

We have been elected for being the Bride of Christ.

As Eve was in Adam's side, we were chosen IN HIM before the foundations of the earth to become the Lord's Bride!

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. Ephesians 1:4​

We are now like Eve was before her bodily substance was removed from Adam's body!
What we are to being right now is hidden in Christ!

What we are to become bodily is right now hidden in His glorious body!

God seated us with Him in heaven! In His Body!

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.' Ephesians 2:6​

​

​

In Christ....

So...being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world...means we were always going to be saved? There was never a chance that we wouldn't be included in the body of Christ?

 

[NightTwister]

You couldn't drag me into a Reformed Church with a 20 mule team......

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[NightTwister]

I hope so since I only know people from them that explains it to me. I would not preach in a Reformed Church because they make too much up and I only preach the Gospel.

You wouldn't be welcome to preach in a reformed church, so that works out well.

 

[Genez]

So...being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world...means we were always going to be saved? There was never a chance that we wouldn't be included in the body of Christ?

It means that omniscient God knowing all souls who will believe.
That out of all He knows will?

He has predestined only those whom He predetermined would be born and alive to believe in the Church age.
In that way, He chose us in Him.

Not chosen to believe.
Chosen because He knew we would believe.

 

[NightTwister]

I hope so since I only know people from them that explains it to me.

Yet, you make statements of fact without knowing. It undermines anything that you say, since you now admit you didn't really know.

 

[Cameron143]

It means that omniscient God knowing all souls who will believe.
That out of all He knows will?

He has predestined only those whom He predetermined would be born and alive to believe in the Church age.
In that way, He chose us in Him.

Not chosen to believe.
Chosen because He knew we would believe.

So why doesn't Romans 8:29 say what God foreknew instead of whom God foreknew? Why make the point in Romans 9 that Jacob was loved and Esau hated before they were born? Why did God tell Moses He will have mercy sovereignly? Why the big deal about the potter sovereignly choosing how to make each vessel?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Did you notice "transformed" is the same word used when Jesus was "transfigured" Matt17:2; Mark9:2 and how Paul also speaks of it so importantly to us in 2Cor3:18?

yes ... and I love that whole section in 2 Cor 3 (even before vs 12, but starting there) ...

2 Corinthians 3:

12 Seeing then that we have such hope [the ministry of righteousness], we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

as we turn our hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ, all of Scripture opens up to reveal His glory ... and His glory is reflected in the born again one by the Spirit of the Lord. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Subject of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation ... all Scripture points to Him. It's interesting that we can recognize fellow brothers and sisters in Christ through His glory being revealed in and through them.

Also, that "test and prove" word is one that speaks of assaying precious metals for purity and value. It's ultimately speaking of proving the value of God's will which is why Paul adds those 3 words to explain it.

yes ... the renewing of the mind ... tests and proves the good, acceptable, perfect Will of God ... good, acceptable, perfect in every situation ... even these ones:



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