Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

If not being spiritually dead, then why would anyone have to be spiritually born-again? That which is already alive spiritually would have no need nor could they be born-again - they couldn't be made alive twice being alive at the same time. It would only become possible and necessary should someone be spiritually dead.

[Jhn 3:6 KJV] 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[Jhn 3:7-8 KJV]
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

John 3 verse 6, Romans 8 verse 7, Galatians 5 verse 17, 2 Timothy 3 verse 13, Romans 3 verse 18 ~ Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[rogerg]

John 3 verse 6, Romans 8 verse 7, Galatians 5 verse 17, 2 Timothy 3 verse 13, Romans 3 verse 18 ~ Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. The mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. The flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. Evil men and imposters go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

I wanted to say so true, but somehow, that didn't seem to effectively convey its true trueness - if that makes sense.
Guess it's that coffee again - gotta quit turbocharging with coffee bags

 

[Magenta]

I wanted to say so true, but somehow, that didn't seem to effectively convey its true trueness - if that makes sense.
Guess it's that coffee again

It does make sense! Much more sense than a great deal of what FWers say.

 

[Cameron143]

I wanted to say so true, but somehow, that didn't seem to effectively convey its true trueness - if that makes sense.
Guess it's that coffee again

True trueness is truly true.

 

[Magenta]

The wicked man boasts in the cravings of his heart; he blesses the greedy and reviles the LORD. In his pride the wicked man does not seek Him; in all his schemes there is no God. Psalm 10 v 3-4 Mocker is the name of the proud and arrogant man - of him who acts with excessive pride. Proverbs 21 v 24 The proud look of man will be humbled, and the loftiness of men brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. For the Day of the LORD of Hosts will come against all the proud and lofty, against all that is exalted - it will be humbled. Isaiah 2 v 11-12 No flesh may boast before God. 1 Cor 1 v 29

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If it were true that He died for the whole world's sins, as you interpret the verses to mean, then you are still confronted with the same problem that you had before but wouldn't/couldn't answer: is Jesus the Savior, or is He not? The answer to that will also answer the above. So then, answer it. Is He or is He not Savior? No reason not to. A simple yes or no will do and it is critical to answer

“If it were true that He died for the whole world's sins, as you interpret the verses to mean,”

lol yeah …..

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

my crazy interpretations are the issue not someone rejecting what it plainly and clearly says …..then inventing arguments like this to distract

“then you are still confronted with the same problem that you had before but wouldn't/couldn't answer: is Jesus the Savior, or is He not? “

of course …..you know I’ll just quote a scripture

“And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭4:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

^^^*that’s my answer it’s part of the core of my argument . Seems silly to ignore the statement of an apostle in a letter to the church ….. saying this “he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”


Then Argue it’s wrong and not true , can’t be true or Jesus can’t be the savior ….then pivot. To demand a person who’s arguing that Jesus is the only savior of all the world forever and is willing to save anyone that repents and believes the gospel. Answers the questions lol “ is Jesus the savior of the world yes or no?” …

It’s……the arguments are just getting more and more ridiculous and bizarre by the day here man . It really “sucks the wind out of the sails “ or maybe I’m just too old and impatient

But The Bible still knows far more than anybody here thinking they know it all . If we study and discuss it together in a decent spirit of peace …..It’s a continuous source of learning a well that has no bottom or dry season , living water that will always quench a thirst when we are ten or when we are seventy two. If we open it prayerfully and seeking to know he will always bless it in his time and way.

We could possibly be missing some information and could possibly seek and find it and have a fuller understanding and faith .

I don’t need to answer things it’s pretty obvious I’d say who the savior of the world is according to scriptire …. It’s not a seminary and I’m not a teacher in the teaching forum . I’m here to discuss what the Bible says in context and lessons it teaches us from god with others who also are here to discuss the Bible’s answers and concepts The Bible answers most all of our questions is my view , and I’m in a discussion forum about the Bible hoping to discuss with people who also want to discuss biblical answers.

that and some rare “cyber fellowship “ with a few people is the only reason I’m here ….since (Cameron stopped cracking jokes and making me laugh keeping me up too late )

we should lobby for a sci fi forum for some of you where your scripts will fit better

just joking not poking

 

[cv5]

If not being spiritually dead, then why would anyone have to be spiritually born-again? That which is already alive spiritually would have no need nor could they be born-again - they couldn't be made alive twice being alive at the same time. It would only become possible and necessary should someone be spiritually dead.

[Jhn 3:6 KJV] 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[Jhn 3:7-8 KJV]
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

If it is true that you stumble at those passages (and you just did), truly the determinists have reached their nadir.

 

[Jordon]

I would say that is correct.

And I would say that Natural Man is of his nature as well.

That ultimately makes Man have dual complexity which one part of him will never seek out God [the Natural part] and the other part that is made exactly like God will at least search out for God.

I believe you have presented a viewpoint that everyone else has either missed because they're held to a certain belief or they have never considered before.

It would explain why some Scripture blatantly claims that Natural Man won't seek God and other Scripture claims from God Himself for man to seek after God and he will find God if he does.

Yep Well it depends who the scripture seek the lord was being spoken to I guess.

Like this one seek the lord whilst he can be found Isaiah 55.6

Is suggesting the lords presence coming to you.

Maybe another case of God for-knowing you, and also a. Case of enabling grace.

But the dual complexity surely that exists in a saved person no.

Like dieing to self daily.

Or was there a dual complexity prior to the fall in some way ? One side of that complexity, the spiritual side suffered a spiritual disconnect from God and was taking captive by the darkness ?

But Gof found away to provide a hedge of protection ?

 

[rogerg]

If it is true that you stumble at those passages (and you just did), truly the determinists have reached their nadir.

Sez you but you're always wrong anyway. I did not stumble - I stated what is undeniable in scripture. Guess you don't believe those whom God saves become born again? I'm not surprised.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Paul effects the change, the epistle effects the change, the individual effects the change, or the Spirit effects the change?

“Paul effects the change, the epistle effects the change,

“paul is a witness of the gospel and his epistle is part of his witness. The holy spirit is a free gift given to any who hear and believe the gospel message which Paul is a chosen and annointed witness of that’s gods plan working

The preaching of the gospel and how the person receives it affects the change like I’ve said to you many times .

the gospel is the power of God to save souls, ( I know you know this verse bro ) that otherwise are lost except they repent and believe the gospel.

gods grace that saves has appeared to all creation

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;


but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

honestly brother it seems simple but it’s sometimes hard to accept things if it’s not what we already thought takes some grace

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Is the healing of the blind physically symbolic of spiritual healing given in enlightenment?

healing of the blind is fulfillment of prophecy ...

Isaiah 42:6-7 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised

healing of the blind confirms that the Lord Jesus Christ is Messiah ... the Anointed One Who preached the gospel to the poor ... Who healed the broken hearted ... Who preached deliverance to the captives ... Who healed the blind ... Who set the bruised at liberty
.

 

[Jordon]

I would say that is correct.

And I would say that Natural Man is of his nature as well.

That ultimately makes Man have dual complexity which one part of him will never seek out God [the Natural part] and the other part that is made exactly like God will at least search out for God.

I believe you have presented a viewpoint that everyone else has either missed because they're held to a certain belief or they have never considered before.

It would explain why some Scripture blatantly claims that Natural Man won't seek God and other Scripture claims from God Himself for man to seek after God and he will find God if he does.

also Isaiah was a prophet was Isaiah 55.6 speaking of a future event ?

And is is there any chance prophecies are missed and not identified for other related conflicting scripture ?

 

[Cameron143]

“Paul effects the change, the epistle effects the change,

“paul is a witness of the gospel and his epistle is part of his witness. The holy spirit is a free gift given to any who hear and believe the gospel message which Paul is a chosen and annointed witness of that’s gods plan working

The preaching of the gospel and how the person receives it affects the change like I’ve said to you many times .

the gospel is the power of God to save souls, ( I know you know this verse bro ) that otherwise are lost except they repent and believe the gospel.

gods grace that saves has appeared to all creation

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;


but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

honestly brother it seems simple but it’s sometimes hard to accept things if it’s not what we already thought takes some grace

Paul and the epistle can give information for an individual to consider when choosing what one believes, which, in turn, may or may not affect one's actions. But the individual decides whether to act or not. But what effects whether or not a person believes and acts or not is their nature. This is why the whole discussion of freewill. What actually can an individual do given their fallen natural estate. You obviously believe the fallen natural man is free of impingement, and can act any way he wants. Others have pointed out some limitations that they believe render the fallen natural man unable to do certain things. I fall into the second group. Some of these include the estate of the heart, the lack of spiritual life, and the fact that he is not subject to the law of God, nor can be.
Given this, the conversation has progressed to whether or not the Spirit is necessary to salvation, and, if so, what is the extent of His involvement.

 

[Cameron143]

healing of the blind is fulfillment of prophecy ...

Isaiah 42:6-7 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.


Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised

healing of the blind confirms that the Lord Jesus Christ is Messiah ... the Anointed One Who preached the gospel to the poor ... Who healed the broken hearted ... Who preached deliverance to the captives ... Who healed the blind ... Who set the bruised at liberty
.

And that's all? The invisible things of God are not known by the things that are seen? People only see but not perceive?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If not being spiritually dead, then why would anyone have to be spiritually born-again? That which is already alive spiritually would have no need nor could they be born-again - they couldn't be made alive twice being alive at the same time. It would only become possible and necessary should someone be spiritually dead.

[Jhn 3:6 KJV] 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[Jhn 3:7-8 KJV]
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

not a single verse saying anyone’s spiritually dead.

adam lost the right to the tree of life to eat and live forever . There’s absolutely nothing that says he died spiritually . I have asked a few times for a single verse actually saying it but what I get is the same thing you did . It’s because there isn’t a single verse to say it on it’s own.
at the same time I’ve shown verses from the ot that tell us man has a spirit within him from god that actually operates with and functions a service for god .

The spirit of man is referenced alot actually and it’s never once said that man’s spirit is dead . People stick those type of things together like you did they’re never having the Bible actually say it , but the contrary is shown many times that man has a living spirit in them even in the ot.

But that one single verse telling us man’s spiritually dead still seems elusive.

again theres a lot of these showing this point

“But there is a spirit in man: And the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭32:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I am full of matter, The spirit within me constraineth me.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭32:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:

and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:5‬ ‭

Mans always had a living spirit in the ot anyways . it won’t die until the lake of fire the second death that’s what Jesus is trying to save us from the death of our living spirit. Our bodies are condemned to die that should be pretty obvious to anyone over fifty


there’s a ton to show man has a spirit living in them and that being born again is a reference to receiving the holt spirit the comforter

“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

jesus didn’t tell his followers he was going to replace thier spirit he told them he was going to send the Holy Spirit to be with them and dwell in them to teach and lead and guide them . He promised to send a Companion to lead and comfort and teach and guide us . To save our spirit from impending death our body of flesh and blood can’t be saved because that’s the first death

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Paul and the epistle can give information for an individual to consider when choosing what one believes, which, in turn, may or may not affect one's actions. But the individual decides whether to act or not. But what effects whether or not a person believes and acts or not is their nature. This is why the whole discussion of freewill. What actually can an individual do given their fallen natural estate. You obviously believe the fallen natural man is free of impingement, and can act any way he wants. Others have pointed out some limitations that they believe render the fallen natural man unable to do certain things. I fall into the second group. Some of these include the estate of the heart, the lack of spiritual life, and the fact that he is not subject to the law of God, nor can be.
Given this, the conversation has progressed to whether or not the Spirit is necessary to salvation, and, if so, what is the extent of His involvement.

God did his part . Sent the message out to all people . Anyone who hears and believes the gospel and responds will be saved . As a result of that . Anyone’s who rejects it won’t be saved as a result of that .

 

[rogerg]

Then Argue it’s wrong and not true , can’t be true or Jesus can’t be the savior ….then pivot. To demand a person who’s arguing that Jesus is the only savior of all the world forever and is willing to save anyone that repents and believes the gospel. Answers the questions lol “ is Jesus the savior of the world yes or no?” …

Jesus is not the Savior of this world - He will destroy it and everything in it - so it won't to be saved. Instead, He is the Savior of only those destined to become saved - those who will comprise the world to come. If you are going to say He is its Savior, then He must save it - it and everything in it - or He isn't, otherwise, you're wrong. So, you are the one hedging by saying He is its Savior, but He is only under certain criteria of your own making which you manipulate to support the different conclusions based on the point you're trying to make - but no wiggle room is permitted. He either is, or He isn't -you can't have it both ways saying that He is Savior of the world but only if.... And by doing so, you add a qualification of your own making to the verse that isn't contained within it nor permitted by it. IOW, everyone/thing that He is the Savior of, must become saved with no exceptions nor contribution permitted besides His.

 

[BillyBob]

True trueness is truly true.

Cameron seems to be on a roll today! On 2nd thought, he's on a roll every day!

 

[rogerg]

not a single verse saying anyone’s spiritually dead.

He ate of the tree but on the day he ate, he didn't die physically but spiritually, otherwise, we would be reading about his physical death,
and none of the rest of the Bible would have happened because his offspring were born after expulsion from the garden.

[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[Kroogz]

“We face discipline, harsh discipline, possible blessings in time and eternal being taken from us, possible loss of rewards and reign and possible physical death......But never loss of eternal life.”

does this change it or make you consider at all ?

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Or this ?

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-

kind of what I was meaning was if I’m already convinced ^^^^ that’s not true it’s going to be really hard for me to accept even something really clear and straight forward like the above there even if it’s repetetive

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22



I’m not trying to argue with you but it’s hard for me to just pretend I don’t see those types of scriptures constantly though the New Testament . I have a hard time just ignoring stuff I know is there otherwose if just agree with everyone’s opinions all the time to keep peace ….. it’s hard really because no one who has your position regarding “ losing salvation “ ( which really isn’t a proper term ) but no one ever actually addresses all those types of scriptures they just get ignored and I can’t do that with a good conscience

We could say it’s not about salvation but

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. “

but it’s about salvation

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a lot there that doesn’t really support the other view …..just for you to consider

Nope. We are renewed the moment we believe. The Lord Jesus Christ cannot renew a renewed believer.

Open shame.........crucifying Christ again for loss of salvation or "renewing salvation."

The saved Jews were doing it with animal sacrifice.......Once saved always saved. Open shame(To Him)to anyone who thinks otherwise.

@Pilgrimshope There is never a verse about loss of salvation or eternal life.

Just like .....there is never a verse that says mankind cannot believe the Gospel.