Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Rufus said:
John's epistle was written primarily to JEWISH believers,

********************************************************
nope ... John wrote to born again believers.

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Only a very determined determinist could fumble that pass.......

That's what I said! Give me one epistle in the NT that isn't written to believers!

Only someone desperately determined to find fault with another would clutch so tightly to one thin strand of straw.

One more thing...even if you were right...and John's audience was a mixed bag of Jewish and Gentile believers, that still would not change the fact that he excluded his audience from being part of the "whole world", which means the phrase should logically be understood in the limited sense.

 

[Kroogz]

One more thing...even if you were right...and John's audience was a mixed bag of Jewish and Gentile believers, that still would not change the fact that he excluded his audience from being part of the "whole world", which means the phrase should logically be understood in the limited sense.

It amazes me that I fell for this nonsense for a very dry time.

1 Cor 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in the sight of God. For it is written: “He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE BY THEIR CRAFTINESS”;

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good post brother. But this is where we disagree.

We face discipline, harsh discipline, possible blessings in time and eternal being taken from us, possible loss of rewards and reign and possible physical death......But never loss of eternal life.

We are born of imperishable seed.

We will never perish.

We have eternal life.

We will never, no not ever come into condemnation.

We are not our own and have been bought with a HUGE price.......See the irony here with the reformed/calvie/tulip folks?

“We face discipline, harsh discipline, possible blessings in time and eternal being taken from us, possible loss of rewards and reign and possible physical death......But never loss of eternal life.”

does this change it or make you consider at all ?

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:26-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Or this ?

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-

kind of what I was meaning was if I’m already convinced ^^^^ that’s not true it’s going to be really hard for me to accept even something really clear and straight forward like the above there even if it’s repetetive

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬

“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭22



I’m not trying to argue with you but it’s hard for me to just pretend I don’t see those types of scriptures constantly though the New Testament . I have a hard time just ignoring stuff I know is there otherwose if just agree with everyone’s opinions all the time to keep peace ….. it’s hard really because no one who has your position regarding “ losing salvation “ ( which really isn’t a proper term ) but no one ever actually addresses all those types of scriptures they just get ignored and I can’t do that with a good conscience

We could say it’s not about salvation but

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. “

but it’s about salvation

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a lot there that doesn’t really support the other view …..just for you to consider

 

[studier]

Do you equate God bringing some unbelievers to the point of crying out to Him being bringing information alone to affect the change, or are there internal affects in the mind and heart also?

Information, conditions, situations, combinations,

 

[Cameron143]

Information, conditions, situations, combinations,

Which is all outside a man. Any internal work?

 

[Rufus]

What’s this have to do with you imagining your own doctrine at every point or anything really ?

“Have you ever seen a physically dead person respond to sounds or sights?”

What are you talking about? Are y out back to how everyone’s born “ spiritually dead “ again ? I told you that’s not in the Bible . Man has always had a spirit and it’s never been dead .

“But there is a spirit in man: And the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”
‭‭Job‬ ‭32:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The spirit he gave mankind in the beginning is our connection to him and how god searches the innermost parts of mankind

“The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, Searching all the inward parts of the belly.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭20:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

How many dead spirits are searching the insides of the person ?

You know what you won’t find ? A so for scripture saying man’s spirit is dead . You’ll just explain how man’s born spiritually dead ……you don’t have interest in learning from the Bible it seems like honestly more like you want to make sure no one else believes what it says either

Man being born spiritually dead is error. But you could always find that scripture saying “ man is spiritually dead “ and then correct me on that . Rather than just keep explaining error

Learn how to read already! Job 32:8 is not saying the spirit of man is innately alive. But it is saying the BREATH (Spirit) of the Almighty gives them understanding which is spiritual life! Ditto for Prov 20:27. Don't you know that Knowledge of the Holy One is Understanding (Prov 9:10)!? Knowing God is [eternal] life! But no one comes into this world innately possessing that kind of knowledge; therefore all men come into this world spiritually stillborn.

 

[studier]

Which is all outside a man. Any internal work?

You think information, life conditions & situations, combinations of all of them don't affect or enter into the inside of a man?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rufus said:
John's epistle was written primarily to JEWISH believers,

********************************************************
nope ... John wrote to born again believers.

********************************************************
Only a very determined determinist could fumble that pass.......

That's what I said!

nope ... here's what you said, Rufus:

John's epistle was written primarily to JEWISH believers

and here's my reply to your nonsense:

nope ... John wrote to born again believers.

.

 

[Magenta]

Which is all outside a man. Any internal work?

Being brought to life so one can receive the spiritual things of God must be denied at all costs.

After all, the life they are gifted with in their theology comes after their incurably wicked heart cures itself.

 

[NightTwister]

We have the ability to love God more than those around us so I am not sure you are completely accurate.

Better than some isn't the same as God's standard for love. So you are completely inaccurate.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Were that to be true (which it isn't), then Jesus Christ could not be Savior. Do you, being a Christian, believe that He is?

“Were that to be true (which it isn't),then Jesus Christ could not be Savior.

Your logic and interpretations are astounding ….. truly . But you did really highlight the point I made because of all the simple basic things you have wrong this doesn’t register

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s like that doesn’t exist it’s plainly and clearly saying Jesus does not only formoir sins as believers but for the sins of the whole world. But again it’s going to be hard for a few of you to acknowledge the stuff that would correct your beliefs.

Like Jesus didn’t just die for some peoples sins he died for all the worlds sin . It’s a basic and fundamental biblical point but with some of you even a basic fundamental point becomes a fifty page argument mostly about things like you just cooked up “ if Jesus died for everyone’s sins then he can’t be the savior ,,, what a silly place this is sometimes

 

[cv5]

all your bloviating does not change the fact that if you would read verses in the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them, you probably would not have submitted your post stating ...

​

And now you have been shown that Joshua said they could not serve the Lord if they forsake Him and serve idols. Even though we all know God is Holy ... what you claim Joshua said is not what Joshua said.

Quit arguing with God and study His Word ... and when you have been shown the truth of God's Word, humbly bow your head and thank Him for revealing His Word to you ... don't continue arguing in your prideful self-exaltation.

Here ... take your own advice ...

​

.

And now you have been shown that Joshua said they could not serve the Lord if they forsake Him and serve idols. Even though we all know God is Holy ... what you claim Joshua said is not what Joshua said.

Just the last of an uncountable number of similar deliberate and calculated misrepresentations of the intended message. This intended message framed by the necessarily full complement of relevant passages.

In other words, a prolific repeat offender caught red handed. Again.

 

[cv5]

That's what I said! Give me one epistle in the NT that isn't written to believers!

Only someone desperately determined to find fault with another would clutch so tightly to one thin strand of straw.

One more thing...even if you were right...and John's audience was a mixed bag of Jewish and Gentile believers, that still would not change the fact that he excluded his audience from being part of the "whole world", which means the phrase should logically be understood in the limited sense.

Tell it to the judge.

 

[Cameron143]

You think information, life conditions & situations, combinations of all of them don't affect or enter into the inside of a man?

No, I don't, but they don't affect the mind or heart of the individual. They only reveal what is already there.

What is a godly sorrow that works repentance?

BTW, appreciate you answering the questions.

 

[rogerg]

It’s like that doesn’t exist it’s plainly and clearly saying Jesus does not only formoir sins as believers but for the sins of the whole world. But again it’s going to be hard for a few of you to acknowledge the stuff that would correct your beliefs.

Like Jesus didn’t just die for some peoples sins he died for all the worlds sin . It’s a basic and fundamental biblical point but with some of you even a basic fundamental point becomes a fifty page argument mostly about things like you just cooked up “ of Jesus died for everyone’s sins then he came be the savior ,,, what a silly place this is sometimes

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If it were true that He died for the whole world's sins, as you interpret the verses to mean, then you are still confronted with the same problem that you had before but wouldn't/couldn't answer: is Jesus the Savior, or is He not? The answer to that will also answer the above. So then, answer it. Is He or is He not Savior? No reason not to. A simple yes or no will do and it is critical to answer

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Learn how to read already! Job 32:8 is not saying the spirit of man is innately alive. But it is saying the BREATH (Spirit) of the Almighty gives them understanding which is spiritual life! Ditto for Prov 20:27. Don't you know that Knowledge of the Holy One is Understanding (Prov 9:10)!? Knowing God is [eternal] life! But no one comes into this world innately possessing that kind of knowledge; therefore all men come into this world spiritually stillborn.

Yeah nothing ever means what it says …..

“The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, Searching all the inward parts of the belly.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭20:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Of course man’s dead spirit is searching ect ect of course you’ll tell
Me why that’s not acceptable man has no spirit it’s dead yadda yadda

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭2:11‬ ‭

“For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those spirits were still alive thousands of years later still weren’t dead . And they died in Noah’s day lol …. You should some say think about maybe learning from the Bible it would improve your understanding of the bible .


But I know how to read thanks . I just don’t spend my time flailing about trying to explain error while rejecting countless scripture . Like I said though that one scriptire actually saying man’s spirit is dead would do the trick


correct me Rufus support that dead spirit with one scripture saying that . But find one that actually says that you should be able to find a single scripture saying man’s spirit died or was dead after Adam nothing that actually says it died was dead is dead ect I don’t think you’ll find it , but feel free to piece me wrong in that one

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No, I don't, but they don't affect the mind or heart of the individual. They only reveal what is already there.

What is a godly sorrow that works repentance?

BTW, appreciate you answering the questions.

Paul warning them harshly about losing thier inheritance in the first letter caused it ….

“For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:8-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a godly sorrow came because Paul told them about thier sin supporting the sexual immorality in thier group at church. Godly sorrow is when you become sorry about the sin you committed this type of sorrow leads to repentance

worldly sorrow is like being sorry because you can’t keep doing the sin , not worry because you did it sorry because you are being told you can’t keep doing it

Paul’s first letter was a harsh warning among other things in the s conf he’s addressing it . And the effect it had when he wrote them and warned them about thier sin . It made the. Sorrowful because they had sinned in such a way this led to rhier repentqnce and change of action .

if we always pretend sin isn’t a big deal and god doesn’t care anymore whether we sin or not we never will come to repentance well Never feel that season of godly sorrow meant to save us and turn us from sin . Truth brings repentance when we’ve sinned again it should feel like we’ve sinned again that is part of the process of repentance .

many chroetians refuse to even acknowledge thoer own sins or confront them and deal with them as god taught us

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t like the feeling bit sun needs to become sinful to us ugly and dirty and it will if we remain on the doctrine

 

[Cameron143]

Paul warning them harshly about losing thier inheritance in the first letter caused it ….

“For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:8-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a godly sorrow came because Paul told them about thier sin supporting the sexual immorality in thier group at church. Godly sorrow is when you become sorry about the sin you committed this type of sorrow leads to repentance

worldly sorrow is like being sorry because you can’t keep doing the sin , not worry because you did it sorry because you are being told you can’t keep doing it

Paul’s first letter was a harsh warning among other things in the s conf he’s addressing it . And the effect it had when he wrote them and warned them about thier sin . It made the. Sorrowful because they had sinned in such a way this led to rhier repentqnce and change of action .

if we always pretend sin isn’t a big deal and god doesn’t care anymore whether we sin or not we never will come to repentance well Never feel that season of godly sorrow meant to save us and turn us from sin . Truth brings repentance when we’ve sinned again it should feel like we’ve sinned again that is part of the process of repentance .

many chroetians refuse to even acknowledge thoer own sins or confront them and deal with them as god taught us

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We don’t like the feeling bit sun needs to become sinful to us ugly and dirty and it will if we remain on the doctrine

Paul effects the change, the epistle effects the change, the individual effects the change, or the Spirit effects the change?

 

[Magenta]

What is a godly sorrow that works repentance?

2 Corinthians 7 v 10 ~ Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation without regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

 

[rogerg]

correct me Rufus support that dead spirit with one scripture saying that . But find one that actually says that you should be able to find a single scripture saying man’s spirit died or was dead after Adam nothing that actually says it died was dead is dead ect I don’t think you’ll find it , but feel free to piece me wrong in that one

If not being spiritually dead, then why would anyone have to be spiritually born-again? That which is already alive spiritually would have no need nor could they be born-again - they couldn't be made alive twice being alive at the same time. It would only become possible and necessary should someone be spiritually dead.

[Jhn 3:6 KJV] 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[Jhn 3:7-8 KJV]
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[Gen 2:17 KJV] 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.