Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

How do you know you are not of the elect.

He would likely curse God first before conceding unconditional election. He probably never even considered such question because the Doctrines of Grace are anathema to him!

 

[cv5]

On what judicial basis would God save "babies and children"? I guess "all" doesn't truly mean all w/o exception in Rom 3:23?

Yes.....you are that guy. One of several like-minded individuals.
We thank you for your admission in any case.

 

[Rufus]

Rufus ... if you include the context within which 1 John 5:19 is placed by the Author of Scripture you will find that while the "world" or "whole world" lies in wickedness, the wicked one cannot touch those who are born again. Is the born again one affected by the wickedness surrounding him or her ... yes, of course ... even the Lord Jesus Christ was grieved when He walked the earth .

and God's promise is that the wicked one cannot touch the born again believer.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
.

So...you're saying that the "whole world" does not include those "born again"? I mean the text does say that the evil one CANNOT touch him because God keeps his own safe!

1 John 5:18
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
ESV

Conversely, the "whole world" sins continually and God does not protect the world from the power of the devil. Yet, the sons of God are not and cannot be controlled by the devil because of God's protection.

So...are born again believers under the power and control of the devil as the "whole world" is, or are they protected by the power of God?

 

[Magenta]

False dilemma. There's another option: God desires all to be saved. The gospel is His power toward salvation. All who hear the gospel encounter that power. Some believe and receive its saving effect....

Are you ever going to acknowledge the fact that some don't hear? And the reason why they don't hear? No???
Oh yeah, you rewrire 1 Cor 2:14 (among many other verses you choose to distort to your pre-programmed way
of thinking) so you can prop up your false "doctrine" and proclaim that man is free before Christ sets him free.

 

[Cameron143]

Of course once again not about the process of salvation, ordo salutis.

Right. Jesus didn't actually say that.

 

[Cameron143]

The rock in Matt16:18 is the revelation that Jesus is the Christ, personally revealed by God to Peter. This truth about Jesus was foundational, and, as Paul explains in 1Cor3, remains the foundation. Since then, God saves through the publicly proclaimed gospel, which is the power of God toward salvation, benefiting everyone who is believing. Belief or unbelief is a volitional human response to the gospel’s inherent power.

Belief is a volitional choice, but that choice is impacted by the nature of the individual. Dogs do dog things. Leopards maintain their spots. Fallen natural man believes the gospel is foolishness.
The only way to make a dog do cat things is to give it a cat's nature. The only way to get a fallen natural man to do spiritual and Godly things is to give him a divine nature.

 

[Cameron143]

Reinforcing Scripture at some point is meaningful, but only if it builds on the original point. Shifting to another verse without resolving the logic of the first one isn’t reinforcement, it’s avoidance.

You can't make a simple between the word of God and its role in salvation and the going forth of God's word to accomplish God's purposes? That's a bridge too far?

 

[cv5]

Oh yeah, you rewrire 1 Cor 2:14

Nope. Everybody here knows the real story on 1 Cor 2:14. Old news.
DOES NOT RECIEVE - an act of personal volition.

Strong's Greek: 1209. δέχομαι (dechomai) -- To receive, accept, welcome

1209 déxomai – properly, to receive in a welcoming (receptive) way. 1209 (déxomai) is used of people welcoming God (His offers), like receiving and sharing in His salvation (1 Thes 2:13) and thoughts (Eph 6:17).

1209/dexomai ("warmly receptive, welcoming") means receive with "ready reception what is offered" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 7), i.e. "welcome with appropriate reception" (Thayer).

[The personal element is emphasized with 1209 (déxomai) which accounts for it always being in the Greek middle voice. This stresses the high level of self-involvement (interest) involved with the "welcoming-receiving." 1209 (déxomai) occurs 59 times in the NT.]

 

[Cameron143]

Nope. Quit editing scripture to suit your dogma.

Strong's Greek: 4991. σωτηρία (sótéria) -- Salvation

Cognate: 4991 sōtēría (from 4982 /sṓzō, "to save, rescue") – salvation, i.e. God's rescue which delivers believers out of destruction and into His safety. See 4982 (sōzō).

View attachment 279345

Unto means leading to. Toward means to point in the direction. While the second definition is certainly in view, the first is definitely primary. The reason we know is because the verse specifically dealing with those who believe. There is no mention of those who don't believe.

 

[Magenta]

Is it not the Lord who supernaturally opens eyes and ears? Oh wait...almost forgot: God's healing grace is effectual only in physical healings not spiritual ones, right? Salvation for you FWers is merely a natural act of human-generated "volitional belief" (to borrow Studier's heretical phrase).

Whatever does a FWer need Jesus to do that for them when they believe man was born with everything required to come to belief?

from Revelation 3 verse 17-18 ~ You say, ‘I need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

 

[studier]

Belief is a volitional choice, but that choice is impacted by the nature of the individual. Dogs do dog things. Leopards maintain their spots. Fallen natural man believes the gospel is foolishness.
The only way to make a dog do cat things is to give it a cat's nature. The only way to get a fallen natural man to do spiritual and Godly things is to give him a divine nature.

Belief is indeed volitional, and the gospel is not presented to dogs but to humans - each fully capable of believing or rejecting its power and responsible for their response. Rom1:16 affirms this volitional belief. Any attempt to shift the argument to nature or other factors is a familiar pivot and does not change Scripture’s teaching.

 

[Cameron143]

Belief is indeed volitional, and the gospel is not presented to dogs but to humans - each fully capable of believing or rejecting its power and responsible for their response. Rom1:16 affirms this volitional belief. Any attempt to shift the argument to nature or other factors is a familiar pivot and does not change Scripture’s teaching.

Why is the gospel foolishness to the perishing?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So what's the answer? How about Acts 7 when Stephen preached. Was that the word of God going forth?

yes.

Crickets.

rolleyes ... oh my goodness, Cameron143 ... you submitted your question ... then allowed 17 minutes between the time you asked and the time you submitted "crickets" ... ever hear of patience? ... has it ever occurred to you that maybe ... just maybe ... others are attending to other things besides answering your questions?

and how about Magenta answering the question? ... I notice she didn't answer either ... however, you two went off on a tangent as usual ... bashing your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ ... which leads me to believe you are not really interested in what the Author of Scripture has written in Acts 7 ... smh

I did. But that's what happens when the truth of scripture challenges the assumptions of people. They will either admit their error, double down on their mistake, or just grow silent.

It is extremely rare these free willers admit any error. Oh. Some would rather blaspheme God than do that.

It certainly seems so sometimes.

... the carnality exhibited in this thread is troubing ... those who are born again need to put off the old man and put on the new man.

Ephesians 4:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

may I ask after all the thoughts exchanged what you believe about having free will ?

the term has never been defined ... and when someone has attempted to define it, the definition does not define what I (or others who are called "FWers") believe ... but that does not stop others from calling me and others a "FWer" or "freewiller" or "Pelagian heretic" or whatever name comes to mind when the name-calling post is submitted.

The more I study this the more I just can't see it,
Have you ever done a study about the hardened heart.

I do not believe anybody is born with a "hardened heart". I believe the heart becomes hardened over time.

Or have you ever been asked or have any idea when God hardens the sinners heart.

Romans 1:16-32 tells us ...

Rom 1:16-17 — the gospel is preached and God promises salvation to those who believe. The life of the believer is from faith to faith ... iow, the new life of the believer begins in faith and continues in faith from start to finish. It is not from works to faith ... or from faith to works ... it is from faith to faith ... the just shall live by faith.

Rom 1:18 — the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness when God's Word is spoken to them. (The words hold the truth in unrighteousness mean that the truth is restrained or suppressed in unrighteouosness.)

Rom 1:19-21 — God reveals Himself in creation and people turn from Him and are not thankful. They become vain in their imaginations and the foolish heart becomes darkened.

Rom 1:22-24 — because the heart is darkened, they change the glory of God into an image (idolatry).

They are given up to uncleannesss through the lusts of their own hearts.

Rom 1:24-26 — because they are given up to uncleanness, they dishonor their bodies. The truth of God is changed into a lie and creation is worshipped more than the Creator.

They are given up to vile affections and the natural is changed into that which is against nature.

Rom 1:27-28 — because they are given up to vile affections, they burn in their lust and work that which is unseemly which results in receiving the adequate compensation for their error.

They are given over to a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:29-32 — actions of those with a reprobate mind. They know the judgment of God and continue in their foolishness and also have pleasure in those who do the same.

People are not born with a reprobate mind. They are allowed to step further and further from God and at certain points, God releases them to their foolishness. it is a downward spiral from their foolish heart was darkened (Rom 1:21) to God gave them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28). It does not happen overnight. It is a progression over time.

At any point, a person can turn to God. God forgives those who are truly repentant. We have this lifetime to turn to God. Look at the malefactor who hung on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43).
.

 

[Kroogz]

He would likely curse God first before conceding unconditional election. He probably never even considered such question because the Doctrines of Grace are anathema to him!

Nope. I am safe. I made a personal choice for The Lord Jesus Christ. If( And I am not) I am wrong, I am still safe......I was just elected to believe.

You, on the otherhand, better hope salvation doesn't depend on a personal FREEWILL choice for the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Magenta]

Why is the gospel foolishness to the perishing?

Maybe, just maybe, it has something to do with being blinded by the god of this age, being taken captive to do the will of the devil, being inherently opposed to the spiritual things of God which he can neither receive nor comprehend as a God-hater? But FWers don't like such Scriptural truths. They prefer their self-exalting theology over what the Bible explicitly articulates about the man of flesh serving the law of sin (which brings forth fruit unto death, not life) to which he is a slave, being a lover of darkness and defined as darkness itself, and of the world which cannot receive the spirit of Truth. And strangely enough, some here deny that. Their confidence is solidly placed in the flesh.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Good afternoon, What's yo
I believe God has included everything he needs to include, which includes nothing being hidden from us.

What God has given us in His Word is what He wants us to know and we may need to dig a little before a truth is revealed. I also believe there are things He has "hidden from us" that we cannot know ... and that is for our benefit.

What God has not hidden is the gospel ... so if/when someone tells you that the gospel is hid, remember that it is satan who tries to hide the gospel and God is greater than satan. God has given us His Word which reveals the gospel ... God sends His faithful believers to preach the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe ... the hearer of the gospel either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

What's your views on all mankind being born with a heart of stone.

answered in Post 12,694

What's your views on all mankind being born under a covenant of judgement including Adam and eve.

first off ... Adam and Eve were not "born" ... secondly, you will have to clarify what you mean by "covenant of judgement".

What's your views on one of all mankind acts of saving grace from God, is being born with a heart of stone is not quite as severe as being born with a hardened heart.

answered in Post 12,694

Lastly what's your views God has decreed a covenant of Judgement before the foundations of the earth for all mankind

I have no idea what you mean by "covenant of Judgement".
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

.

So...you're saying that the "whole world" does not include those "born again"?

rolleyes ... no that's what you say and you are projecting your belief onto me.

I am saying that the born again one lives in the world ... the whole world lies in wickedness ... and if you do not believe you live in this world, you are delusional.

I mean the text does say that the evil one CANNOT touch him because God keeps his own safe!

the wicked one cannot affect us directly ... the wicked one can only affect us indirectly (i.e. through others).

1 John 5:18
18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
ESV

Conversely, the "whole world" sins continually and God does not protect the world from the power of the devil.

I'm not sure about this ... there is a time coming when demons who are currently imprisoned will be let loose ... so I do not agree with your statement that God "does not protect the world from the power of the devil". God also tells us there are some nasty fellows who are kept in chains.

Yet, the sons of God are not and cannot be controlled by the devil because of God's protection.

yes ... satan can only influence, and that, indirectly ... however, there is a verse which tells the believer not to give place to the devil and that the believer is not to grieve the Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 4:

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So...are born again believers under the power and control of the devil as the "whole world" is, or are they protected by the power of God?

not "or", Rufus ... try "and" ...

born again believers live in the world which is controlled by satan and they are protected by the power of God ...

but that is not to say that bad things can't happen to believers. Look at what happened on 9/11 ... there were believers in the World Trade Center building who died ... and I have heard that some believers who should have been in the building were not in the building (I recall someone saying they were running late). But that event does not mean God is not God or that God is not working in the world.
.

 

[Rufus]

False dilemma. There's another option: God desires all to be saved [but of course has decreed that only Abraham's spiritual descendants actually be saved]. The gospel is His power toward salvation. All who hear the gospel encounter that power [that they can effectually override with their exceedingly more powerful volition]. Some believe and receive its saving effect. Others refuse to believe and reject its benefit. But His power toward salvation remains present and active in every hearing.

Rom1:16 The gospel is the power of God toward salvation, benefiting everyone who is believing, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek.

FTFY!

Also, the gospel is NOT "His power" to all sinners who hear, since God's grace is given only to the humble, the gift of the Fear of the Lord that effectually empowers repentance is given to only Abraham's spiritual descendants, and God never made a redemptive covenant with all mankind in the distributive sense. AND...it gets even worse. Stay tuned for more bad news.

Also, re your last sentence, provide biblical proof for your stupendous claim.

 

[Cameron143]

yes.





rolleyes ... oh my goodness, Cameron143 ... you submitted your question ... then allowed 17 minutes between the time you asked and the time you submitted "crickets" ... ever hear of patience? ... has it ever occurred to you that maybe ... just maybe ... others are attending to other things besides answering your questions?

and how about Magenta answering the question? ... I notice she didn't answer either ... however, you two went off on a tangent as usual ... bashing your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ ... which leads me to believe you are not really interested in what the Author of Scripture has written in Acts 7 ... smh











... the carnality exhibited in this thread is troubing ... those who are born again need to put off the old man and put on the new man.

Ephesians 4:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
.

So if Stephen preaching the word of God was the word going forth, what was God's purpose in sending it forth via Stephen?