Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[rogerg]

Still waiting for a clear statement in scripture that regeneration precedes faith.

You will not find it because it is not there.

Since you need help with understanding words and their meanings here you go.

"Faith" is belief and confidence in the truth of something; in this case (see Hebrews) God's promises specifically, and God's word more generally, whereas "faithfulness" is fulfillment of one's promises or vows.

Faithfulness is one of the characteristics of God's ethical nature. It denotes the firmness or constancy of God in His relations with men, especially with His people. It is, accordingly, one aspect of God's truth and of His unchangeableness. God is true not only because He is really God in contrast to all that is not God, and because He realizes the idea of Godhead, but also because He is constant or faithful in keeping His promises, and therefore is worthy of trust (see TRUTH). God, likewise, is unchangeable in His ethical nature. This unchangeableness the Scripture often connects with God's goodness and mercy, and also with His constancy in reference to His covenant promises, and this is what the Old Testament means by the Faithfulness of God (see UNCHANGEABLENESS).

Read more here >>>> Bible Study Tools

That explanation relative to Gal 5:22 is incomprehensible. Anyway, the word isn't faithfulness, it's faith. although faithfulness does flow from it. Taken from NKJV - it being your translation of choice - we see that in 2 Pet 1:1 (below), "faith" is "pistis" - the same word as in Gal 5:22. The KJV, however, in both places translates it as "faith". Moreover, in the NKJV, "faithfulness", in the NT, is used as faithfulness, in only two places: Rom 3:3 and Gal 5:22. On the other hand, "Pistis" is translated as "faith" and is predominately used some 243 times - although I didn't individually evaluate each and every verse.
But most importantly, we also see in 2 Pe 1:1 - again from your translation - that faith is only obtained by (through) the righteousness of Christ. That means faith, "pistis", came unto them only by becoming born-again, because only those born-again have the righteousness of Christ imputed unto them. By that verse alone, should we choose to look no further, we can see without question, that faith (pistis), only accompanies being born again and cannot precede it.


[2Pe 1:1 NKJV] 1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

In the KJV, we see in Gal 2:16, that being born again occurs first because it is only by the faith of Christ, that we believe, and the faith of Christ is only through spiritual rebirth, as Gal 5:22 so states. Now, before you say it, I realize in Gal; 2:16, (NKJV), the "of" was translated as "in', However that is incorrect for several reasons. For one, because God explicitly used "in" in the verse where He wanted "in" used, so had He wanted the "of" to be "in", He would have also explicitly stated that way, but He didn't. Second, again referring back to 2 Pe1:1, we see that faith comes only by the righteousness of Christ, not man. So, if it is a true faith, it cannot be self-generated nor produced. Given all that, it is obvious that the "of" of Gal 2:16, is correct and the "pistis" of Gal 5:22 actually is "faith", not "faithfulness", which accompanies spiritual rebirth.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[NightTwister]

Google AI

AI Overview

Yes, from a humanistic and some theological viewpoints, humans have free will to choose , but this ability is often seen as limited or subject to underlying desires or divine influence, rather than absolute freedom from all factors. In many religious contexts, particularly in Christianity, free will is believed to be a gift from God, enabling humans to make genuine choices, even to choose evil, though some perspectives argue that a sinful nature or a higher divine plan can influence these choices.

Theological Perspectives

• Christianity:
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  Free will is a core concept, allowing for genuine love and choice, even if it includes the potential for evil. However, some Christian views also emphasize a "sinful nature" that prevents a person from choosing righteousness on their own, requiring divine grace to enable that choice.
  
  
• Judaism:
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  The Torah presents life and death as choices, implying free will is necessary for people to make those decisions, such as choosing to serve God or not.
  
  
• Islam:
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  The Quran demonstrates freedom of choice, indicating that individuals have the capacity to make choices that affect their lives.

Philosophical and Psychological Perspectives

• Humanistic Psychology:
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  This approach assumes humans possess free will and personal agency, meaning they make choices that shape their lives and have consequences.
  
  
• Limitations of Free Will:
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  Even where free will is affirmed, it's often understood to exist within certain limits. Just as one cannot choose to fly, a person may be unable to choose to make themselves righteous due to their inherent nature or circumstances, according to some views.

The Role of Choice in Goodness and Evil

• The Necessity of Choice:
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  Some argue that genuine goodness and love are only possible if there is a real choice involved; a being programmed to be good would not possess true love.
• The Origin of Evil:
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  Free will is also seen as the reason evil exists, as it gives beings the choice to go wrong.

The Complexity of Free Will

• Divine Will vs. Human Choice:
  Some theological discussions explore the relationship between human free will and God's predestination or sovereign will, presenting a complex view where both coexist.
  
  
• Voluntary Actions:
  Even if a person is compelled by internal factors (like desires), their actions can still be considered voluntary, making them responsible for those choices.

Google AI isn't God's Word.

 

[NightTwister]

The Greeks could

The more we're caused to dig, the more the determinist system falls apart, even if some don't care. Scripture is ultimately not their friend.

The Greeks couldn't understand scripture without the Spirit either.

 

[Magenta]

Still waiting for a clear statement in scripture that regeneration precedes faith.

You will not find it because it is not there.

LOL. Still waiting for a clear statement of free will.

You will not find it because it is not there.

Not even supporting texts that say the incurably wicked heart can cure itself, because man is not able,
despite all your proclamations to the contrary telling us that man is able to do the very thing Scripture
says he cannot with his incurably wicked heart. Praise the Lord what is impossible with man is possible with God.

Romans 7 v 14, John 8 v 34, Jeremiah 13 v 23, Romans 3 v 10 ~ We know that the law is spiritual; but
I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.” Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Neither are you able to do good - you who are accustomed to doing evil. There is no one righteous, not even one.

 

[rogerg]

LOL. Still waiting for a clear statement of free will.

You will not find it because it is not there.

Not even supporting texts that say the incurably wicked heart can cure itself, because man is not able,
despite all your proclamations to the contrary telling us that man is able to do the very thing Scripture
says he cannot with his incurably wicked heart. Praise the Lord what is impossible with man is possible with God.

Romans 7 v 14, John 8 v 34, Jeremiah 13 v 23, Romans 3 v 10 ~ We know that the law is spiritual; but
I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.” Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Neither are you able to do good - you who are accustomed to doing evil. There is no one righteous, not even one.

I wish I could have used two reactions: "like" and "funny".

 

[Magenta]

In scripture there is not one place where regeneration precedes faith.

You have man hearing and obeying what Scripture says he cannot comprehend or submit to.

Yep, your theology tells you man is not such a bad guy and his flesh can bring forth fruit unto life when Scripture says the opposite.

 

[BillyBob]

Has there been any condemnation of this statement on this thread.
There has been NONE.

I do not normally critique others unless paid to do so! However, I have made an exception for the postings of Fwers....

 

[Magenta]

I do not normally critique others unless paid to do so! However, I have made an exception for the postings of Fwers....

She wants us to condemn some old dead guy... ack, it's just another one of her logical fallacies.

It would not be much different than condemning Italians because many of them are Catholic.

 

[HeIsHere]

The reformed faith believes God is the first cause of all things given that God in creation began all things. This doesn't make God responsible for the actions of that which He has created. God allowing for things doesn't make Him culpable.

In this particular case, neither you or I know what is true of the individual. Subsequently, we are unfit to judge. God isn't unfit to judge. I will admit it would be insensitive to have said such things to grieving family members, but if the setting is a reformed conference on divine judgment, he's simply presenting his view on it. Vitriol isn't necessary part of the message. When Jesus told the crowd that unless they repent they would also perish after people were killed from a falling tower, was He being hateful and insensitive? Or was it a teachable moment?

A teachable moment of a false doctrine.

He stated: "Because in one instance a little girl received the judgement from God she had earned."

It is twisted to say the little girl in any way deserved it and a very shameful of a Christian to make such a claim.

Seriously sad how some forms of Calvinism blaspheme God.

Sproul Jr. is not Christ Jesus, best he kept his mouth shut rather that once again cast God to be some kind of moral monster where a child earned the judgement of her rape and torture.

No further comment, if you cannot see how despicable his comment is that is on you.

 

[Magenta]

Sproul Jr. is not Christ Jesus, best he kept his mouth shut rather that once again cast God to be some kind of moral monster

Perhaps you ought to follow your own advice. He is dead, you are not. There is still time for you to amend your wicked ways.

Lord we pray HeIsHere stops blaspheming You and supporting others who do the same thing. In Jesus' name we pray, amen.

Then you will not be seen as being so despicable, to slander Him while pretending you are defending His character.

 

[BillyBob]

Still waiting for a clear statement in scripture that regeneration precedes faith.

Could you explain exactly when it is that you think regeneration take place in the salvation process. If not prior to faith, then when is it? Or, do you think that it is not necessary at all?

 

[cv5]

Pre-destination .. the destination is set before hand
God has chosen those in Him to be blameless in his sight.

God has ***chosen those*** in Him to be blameless in his sight.

Better stated as:

God has chosen ***THESE THINGS, namely*** blamelessness, conformation to His image, justification, adoption, obtaining an inheritance and glory ***FOR those*** who WILL believe, those who WILL CHOOSE to enter the covenant.

Thats the gist of προορίζω. BTW, its kind of a compound term, but @studier would know better than I.

And this term NEVER, EVER pertains to anything about God choosing any individual FOR SALVATION whatsoever and certainly nothing about "pre-birth Calvinistic selection" either.

The common error of mis-juggling the sequence and priority of terms and subjects and objects when presenting a thesis on "predestination" is really the problem.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he G4309 also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Eph 1:5
Having predestinated G4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated G4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

******************************************************************************************************

Act 4:28
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before G4309 to be done.
(The cross, planned from before time, but by then had already arrived at the "destination/realization").

1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained G4309 before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
(The cross, planned from before time, but by then had already arrived at the "destination/realization").

 

[Magenta]

We defend fervently the character of God as set forth in scripture, they defend what they set forth as their personal process.

Hmmm, just recently you spoke of campuses in the 70s, people having personal experiences with God, you spoke of this in glowing terms, whereas here you condemn people having personal experience, which is more your norm = to mock and scoff at the idea of God actually doing the very thing He promised to in Scripture, and which you obviously have not experienced yourself.

I blame this impersonal, non-responsible soteriology as part of the problem.

Gosh, could you please just speak out of one side of your mouth?

 

[HeIsHere]

The more we're caused to dig, the more the determinist system falls apart, even if some don't care. Scripture is ultimately not their friend.

The determinist leans very heavily on select limited number of less clear verses as their list of proof texts.

I appreciate your work to reveal what they really teach and thereby remove them one by one from the list.

 

[HeIsHere]

God has ***chosen those*** in Him to be blameless in his sight.

Better stated as:

God has chosen ***THESE THINGS, namely*** blamelessness, conformation to His image, justification, adoption, obtaining an inheritance and glory ***FOR those*** who WILL believe, those who WILL CHOOSE to enter the covenant.

Thats the gist of προορίζω. BTW, its kind of a compound term, but @studier would know better than I.

And this term NEVER, EVER pertains to anything about God choosing any individual FOR SALVATION whatsoever and certainly nothing about "pre-birth Calvinistic selection" either.

The common error of mis-juggling the sequence and priority of terms and subjects and objects when presenting a thesis on "predestination" is really the problem.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he G4309 also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Eph 1:5
Having predestinated G4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated G4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

******************************************************************************************************

Act 4:28
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before G4309 to be done.
(The cross, planned from before time, but by then had already arrived at the "destination/realization").

1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained G4309 before the world unto our glory:
1Co 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
(The cross, planned from before time, but by then had already arrived at the "destination/realization").

Nice to have the further elaboration and so agree not about choosing individuals for salvation.

Will the see past their incorrect "election" lens.

 

[Intersection]

Google AI

Google AI isn't God's Word.

Freemasonic King James version isn't God's word either.

 

[Magenta]

The determinist leans very heavily on select limited number of less clear verses as their list of proof texts.

You have zero verses. Pathetic, really. Add to that the number of verses you must contradict and deny...

What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?

 

[Cameron143]

A teachable moment of a false doctrine.

He stated: "Because in one instance a little girl received the judgement from God she had earned."

It is twisted to say the little girl in any way deserved it and a very shameful of a Christian to make such a claim.

Seriously sad how some forms of Calvinism blaspheme God.

Sproul Jr. is not Christ Jesus, best he kept his mouth shut rather that once again cast God to be some kind of moral monster where a child earned the judgement of her rape and torture.

No further comment, if you cannot see how despicable his comment is that is on you.

People never lose reason faster than when they are emotional. Is God unloving having allowed this to happen? Is Jesus unloving because He used a similar example to teach about judgment?

I'll stipulate that no one else is Jesus. But since you make this statement, the next time someone is rude and offensive to others and claim Jesus did so so it is okay if they do so, I'm sure you will tell them that they aren't Jesus.

 

[HeIsHere]

People never lose reason faster than when they are emotional. Is God unloving having allowed this to happen? Is Jesus unloving because He used a similar example to teach about judgment?

I'll stipulate that no one else is Jesus. But since you make this statement, the next time someone is rude and offensive to others and claim Jesus did so so it is okay if they do so, I'm sure you will tell them that they aren't Jesus.

No comparison to what happened to that girl.
Just stop.

 

[HeIsHere]

Freemasonic King James version isn't God's word either.

Some people get carried away with the whole idea of it being divinely inspired by the translators, something along those lines.