Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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I have found that often times our weaknesses are also our greatest strengths
When we are weak ... then we are strong ... iow when we come to the end of ourselves, when we deny self ... take up His cross ... follow Him, then we are strong in the Lord and bear His fruit.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

He works through us ... we just hold out His fruit for the world to see ... taste ... ignore ... it's His fruit ... and He can bring forth much fruit as we abide in Him ...
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Everyone knows that Gideon is regaled among the heroes of faith of Hebrews 11.
So it looks like another strikeout for you eh @Cameron143 ?

You might want to read Genesis 15:8 while you are at it genius.
Evidently you don't know the difference between walking by faith and not by sight. Whatever the testimony of Gideon may be, he spent a good deal of his time in fear and needing visual and audible proof to be convinced to trust God. God's word wasn't enough for him until he heard the dream and the interpretation.
 
people will be people I suppose we disagree and then go at each others throats and people refuse to admit they might be wrong in their beliefs and oh yeah throw the term calvanist around like hot cakes. Is this what the church founders had in mind I wonder?

But yeah I just wish we could all agree to disagree and leave it at that
The Church Fathers were not Calvinist.
And neither should you or anyone else be of that ilk.

BTW.....it's actually better defined as the Reformed TRADITION. And a lot of heavyweight Churches buy into it.

Fortunately, I am not the least afflicted, as I actually know better. Lucky me huh?
Well.....luck and thousands of hours of Bible lectures.
 
Evidently you don't know the difference between walking by faith and not by sight. Whatever the testimony of Gideon may be, he spent a good deal of his time in fear and needing visual and audible proof to be convinced to trust God. God's word wasn't enough for him until he heard the dream and the interpretation.
Sorry for your loss. Fake sorry.
 
Evidently you don't know the difference between walking by faith and not by sight. Whatever the testimony of Gideon may be, he spent a good deal of his time in fear and needing visual and audible proof to be convinced to trust God. God's word wasn't enough for him until he heard the dream and the interpretation.
nitpicking the flesh of Gideon does not negate the final analysis according to Scripture.

none of us is perfect in our walk with the Lord ... we falter and stumble along ... and we do not consider ourselves as anything more or less than what God tells us about ourselves in Scripture ... I turn to Scripture every single day for comfort in the promises of God ...

let it lay, Cameron143 ... allow Gideon to rest in peace without conjuring up all his frailties ... why do we have to continually harp on man's flesh with all its baggage when God has given the conclusion of the matter ... which is that by faith Gideon subdued kingdoms?

At one point the children of Israel wanted Gideon to rule over them but Gideon said no ... neither he nor his son ... "the LORD shall rule over you" said Gideon ... Gideon lived to a "good old age" and "the country was in quietness forty years in the days of Gideon".

not a bad epitaph for a thresher of wheat hiding in a winepress from the Midianites.
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If I were to say that God doesn't give his grace to chipmunks, would you then twist that to mean that God's grace will result in producing chipmunks? :rolleyes: Since God doesn't even hear the prayers of sinners, what would make you think that He would give his saving grace to prideful sinners?

God hears the prayers of sinners who repent.
 
Determinism resoundingly defeated. Moved from ping-pong to wack-a-monergist.

Well, this is probably a waste of time, but here is what GW says regarding the doctrine of election (DOE) in Romans 1-11:

A systematic study of the DOE might begin well by interpreting a proof-text that seems to be the fountainhead of the TULIP dogma, namely Romans 9:10-24, in the context of the rest of relevant Scripture in Romans regarding salvation/election (s/e), which is Romans 1-11:

1. Romans 1:16 says the Gospel reveals that (s/e) is for “everyone who believes”, both Jew and Gentile.

2. Romans 1:17 describes s/e as “righteousness from God” that is by faith “from first to last” or from creation until the end.

3. Romans 2:4 teaches that God’s kindness or patience with sinners is meant to lead them toward repentance, which implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.

4. Romans 2:5 warns that those who do not repent but instead stubbornly resist God’s leading are storing up wrath against themselves for the day when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed, which implies that God enables sinners to repent–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

5. Romans 2:6 affirms what is called karma by saying that “God will give to each person according to what he has done”, which (in Gal. 6:7-9) is called reaping what a person sows.

6. Romans 2:7 speaks of the need for “persistence in doing good” and seeking glory, honor and immortality in order to receive s/e or eternal life, which echoes what Jesus commanded (in Matt. 7:7) and connects with the doctrine of perseverance (cf. Heb. 10:36 & Jam. 1:3-4).

7. Romans 2:11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17), which is how God judges people justly, so the fact that some sinners ignore God’s Gospel indicates that His will or leading is resistible because of MFW.

8. Romans 2:15 teaches that sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

9. Romans 3:20-21 states the law makes souls conscious of sin and that “the Law and Prophets testify” or prepare the way for the new revelation of righteousness from God apart from the Law, which takes up where Romans 1:17 left off.

10. Romans 3:22a says that “righteousness from God” or s/e comes through faith “in Jesus Christ” (cf. Eph. 2:8), a phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate s/e.

11. Romans 3:22b says that God’s righteousness is given “to all who believe—there is no difference”” signifying that all sinners may believe or be s/e (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11), because there is no favoritism (#7).

12. Romans 3:23 teaches that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”, meaning that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.

13. Romans 3:24 says sinners “are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (via faith per v.22, cf. 3:27-28); s/e is free because Christ paid the price/cost.

14. Romans 3:25a explains redemption as being “a sacrifice of atonement” for those who have faith in Christ’s work of dying in their place.

15. Romans 3:25b further explains that God demonstrated his just patience (#3) or forbearance in leaving unpunished those sins committed before the revealing of the Gospel (foreshadowed in Gen. 22:8 & 13), implying that sinners had/have the opportunity to believe and be s/e thereby demonstrating God’s justice/not showing favoritism (#11).

16. Romans 3:26 continues to emphasize divine justice by declaring it three ways (“justice…, just…, justifies”), which justness is synonymous with righteousness (2Thes. 1:5-6, Heb. 6:10).

17. Romans 4:1-25 presents Abraham as a Gentile who became the physical father of the Jews and the spiritual father of all who choose to have faith in God/Christ.

18. Romans 5:1 echoes Eph. 2:8 by describing s/e as justification through faith, Eph. 1:5 & 7 by using the phrase “through Jesus Christ”, and Eph. 2:14 by describing s/e as having peace with God.

19. Romans 5:2 & 5 also echo Eph. 2:18 & 3:1 by describing s/e as having access to God’s grace via the Holy Spirit.

20. Romans 5:6-10 states that God’s love (cf. kindness in #3) for the ungodly, for sinners and for His enemies is demonstrated by Christ dying for their s/e or justification/reconciliation.

21. Romans 5:12-21 describes s/e in corporate terms, saying that–like the first man–all (many?) men also sinned and died, and God’s grace comes to all (many?) because of Jesus Christ.

22. Romans 6:1-14 describes s/e in terms of Christians being united with Christ’s death and resurrection, so they who are under grace should not allow sin to reign in their bodies but should instead serve God as instruments of righteousness.

23. Romans 6:15-23 describes s/e in terms of being slaves to whom one willingly obeys, whether to sin or to obedience of God’s teaching that leads to righteousness, which results in eternal life “in Christ Jesus our Lord” (cf. #10).

24. Romans 7:1-6 describes s/e in terms of a wife’s remarriage after the death of her husband, saying that Christians have been released from the dead letter of the law so that they may serve God in the new way of the Spirit.

25. In Romans 7:7-25 Paul describes s/e in terms of struggle between what a person’s conscience wants to do and what his sinful nature causes him to do until he is rescued by Christ.

26. In Romans 8:1-25 Paul describes the s/e struggle in terms of Christians–who are indwelt by the Spirit and freed from living in accordance with the sinful nature—as putting to death sinful deeds, because they are God’s children and co-heirs of Christ’s glorious resurrection.

27. In Romans 8:28-30 Paul says that those who love God were foreknown and “predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son”, which is akin to what Paul said in Ephesians 1:4-14, that before creating the world God chose or predestined those sinners “in Christ” to be blameless sons and receive the Holy Spirit.

28. Romans 8:31-39 elaborates on the previous point by saying that there is nothing that can separate “we” (who reflect God’s love per v.28) from Christ’s love (but Heb. 10:26-36 indicates one exception).

29. In Romans 9:1-5 Paul notes how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah, but being a member of Abraham’s spiritual children is what is crucial (#17).

30. Romans 9:6-13 states that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3). The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.

31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).

34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.

35. Romans 10:9 states God’s requirement for s/e as “confess Jesus as the resurrected Lord”, v.10 clarifies that the condition of faith (#31) precedes the work of confession, and vs.11-13 reiterate that all sinners who call on the name of the Lord will be s/e.

36. Romans 10:18 cites Psalm 19:4, which hints that God’s s/e has been possible for everyone in the world. This implication may also be seen in Gal. 3:8, Col. 1:23 and Tit. 2:11 as well as Rom. 1:20.

37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).

38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.

39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason s/e was offered to Gentiles,

and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.

40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.
 
There is only one true God and the God I know and have even met personally does not have favoritism and does not have a selected people to save and others not he is warm and full of love and grace like a big warm heated blanket that covers the entire earth

Everyone has their view of him but to know him personally to know his nature his traits his smile even that is another matter entirely.
people can provide all the scripture they want to me and I still will tell them who he is even if it contradicts all the evidence presented. My father the one I know and serve and have personally met he loves all gives grace to all and desires to save all

I completely agree, which is why I worry that tulipists pervert the Gospel and will reap separation from God. I hope God will excuse those whose concern to affirm His sovereignty and the inability of souls to earn salvation blinds them to Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and the moral accountability of sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby impugning God’s justness/righteousness (Psa. 33:5, Isa. 9:7).

The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Ignorance of Scripture that contradicts their dogma, such as those teaching the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Unconcern about portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured by including Scripture supporting MFW, doctrinal harmony is enhanced.
 

I don't think enough of us here consider how powerful this ministry of the Spirit of God is in this world combined with the power in the Gospel from God.

7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 "And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 "of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 "of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. (Jn. 16:7-15 NKJ)

According to Jesus:
  • It's more advantageous/profitable to His people and their mission in the world for Him to depart and have the Spirit here doing this work.
  • The Spirit guided His people into all truth that they couldn't yet handle before He left and sent the Spirit of Truth.
  • This "convicting" work is not some minor thing:
    • BDAG gives three main senses:
      1. to scrutinize or examine carefully, bring to light, expose
        – “to show someone’s fault, expose” (e.g., John 3:20; Eph 5:11, 13).
        – Often with the nuance of making wrongdoing visible.
      2. to bring a person to the point of recognizing wrongdoing, convict, convince someone of something
        – “to convict” in a legal or moral sense (e.g., John 8:46; 16:8; Titus 1:9).
        – Can carry the sense of showing someone that they are in the wrong, sometimes in a judicial or forensic context.
      3. to express strong disapproval of someone’s action, reprove, correct
        – “to reprove, rebuke” (e.g., Luke 3:19; 1 Tim 5:20; Rev 3:19).
        – Often used in interpersonal or pastoral settings.
It's mainly this second sense of convicting and convincing that John16 fits into.

Apparently, the determinist can't grasp the power of God to deal with convincing fallen men of the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ, of His Righteousness, of His absolute rule.

Nor it seems can the determinist grasp the power God has granted to the volition of men to choose their eternal fate.
 
nitpicking the flesh of Gideon does not negate the final analysis according to Scripture.

none of us is perfect in our walk with the Lord ... we falter and stumble along ... and we do not consider ourselves as anything more or less than what God tells us about ourselves in Scripture ... I turn to Scripture every single day for comfort in the promises of God ...

let it lay, Cameron143 ... allow Gideon to rest in peace without conjuring up all his frailties ... why do we have to continually harp on man's flesh with all its baggage when God has given the conclusion of the matter ... which is that by faith Gideon subdued kingdoms?

At one point the children of Israel wanted Gideon to rule over them but Gideon said no ... neither he nor his son ... "the LORD shall rule over you" said Gideon ... Gideon lived to a "good old age" and "the country was in quietness forty years in the days of Gideon".

not a bad epitaph for a thresher of wheat hiding in a winepress from the Midianites.
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The story of Gideon, or Abraham, or anyone else is not about them. Rather, they are about how God came to them and changed them, and accomplished things through them. And that's my point. We have a great cloud of witnesses to what end? To encourage us that we can do great things or that God is faithful and trustworthy and will do great things through us? Focusing on the individual is to miss Christ and the power of God. These stories aren't there to glorify the individuals; they are there to magnify God. And so it is with salvation. We aren't supposed to come away thinking what great things Gideon can do, but what great things God can do. And the frailty of those involved is to encourage us that God can indeed use the weak things of this world to accomplish His purposes. And that being the case, He can use us too. Gideon was the worst choice God could make if He was looking for a strong leader. He was the best choice if God wanted to demonstrate His power through another.
 
So...in a real sense, Studier isn't a synergist because the buck stops with man...not God!

Correct to a point. I don't care for the "Synergist" description. I think it gives too much weight to fallen man. I think men have been made in the role of Responders be it Receivers or Rejectors.

When it comes to an accurate use of "Synergist" - from Greek sunergō, literally meaning "work together" - it's used for believers working together with God and with one another (Mark16:20; Rom8:28; Rom16:3; Rom16:9; Rom16:21; 1Cor3:9; 1Cor16:16; 2Cor1:24; 2Cor6:1; 2Cor8:23; Phil2:25; Phil4:3; Col4:11; 1Thess3:2; Philemon1:1; Philemon1:24; 3John1:8)

NAS 1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.​

We believers best all be Synergists.

Unbelievers best be volitional Receivers of the Gift offered.

It's all Grace - just not Determinist, Monergist grace (small "g" for a reason).
 
Apparently, the determinist can't grasp the power of God to deal with convincing fallen men of the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ, of His Righteousness, of His absolute rule.
Oh I think the super-determinists are much worse off than that regarding their faulty assessment of the power and work the Holy Ghost and the Gospel.

I think that it is quite clear that the determinists make impotent both Him and it. Worse, they do not require either in their soteriological model.

Oh its bad. Very very bad indeed.
 
nitpicking the flesh of Gideon does not negate the final analysis according to Scripture.

none of us is perfect in our walk with the Lord ... we falter and stumble along ... and we do not consider ourselves as anything more or less than what God tells us about ourselves in Scripture ... I turn to Scripture every single day for comfort in the promises of God ...

let it lay, Cameron143 ... allow Gideon to rest in peace without conjuring up all his frailties ... why do we have to continually harp on man's flesh with all its baggage when God has given the conclusion of the matter ... which is that by faith Gideon subdued kingdoms?

At one point the children of Israel wanted Gideon to rule over them but Gideon said no ... neither he nor his son ... "the LORD shall rule over you" said Gideon ... Gideon lived to a "good old age" and "the country was in quietness forty years in the days of Gideon".

not a bad epitaph for a thresher of wheat hiding in a winepress from the Midianites.
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Well, by all appearances, the scathing rebukes and offhand-ish denunciations of Adam, Gideon, Abraham and pretty much every other human being (sinner and saint alike) reeks of some kind of bizarre misanthropic complex. And some kind of Calvinistic humiliation ritual religious requirement.

BTW, Rufus, and those of his kind make it a point to severely disrespect and insult their father. Adam. Ceaselessly.
Very scary if you ask me.....:cautious:

Exo 21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Lev 20:9
For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
 
Well, at least you admit that the choice was enabled by the work of the Spirit and the power of the Gospel. Not exactly a will that was free. More like a will that was freed.

I actually have no problem with "enabled" based upon Scripture like YLT John 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

One of the issues for the determinist is that Jesus Christ Himself explains this drawing/enabling as the Father teaching and unbelieving men hearing and learning and then believing.

In our time since the ascension of Christ, the sending of the Spirit to convict/convince the world combined with the power of the Gospel from God concerning His Son - which is all part of Jesus drawing all men to Himself - enables men to make the choice whether to Receive Him or reject Him, which God has given men the freedom to choose either way.

Contrary to your last 2 sentences, the will of fallen man is free to choose. The enablement comes in through being provided the information ultimately by the Spirit of God that fallen men must choose to Receive or reject. There will be no excuse because God Himself knows what has been made clear to all men and why they have rejected it and Him.

BTW, Cameron, most all of us acknowledge the work of God as primary in this. It's a fallacy that we don't.
 
When it comes to an accurate use of "Synergist" - from Greek sunergō, literally meaning "work together" - it's used for believers working together with God and with one another (Mark16:20; Rom8:28; Rom16:3; Rom16:9; Rom16:21; 1Cor3:9; 1Cor16:16; 2Cor1:24; 2Cor6:1; 2Cor8:23; Phil2:25; Phil4:3; Col4:11; 1Thess3:2; Philemon1:1; Philemon1:24; 3John1:8)

NAS 1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.​
There are plenty of "fellow workers" throughout Scripture who absolutely know that they are, and wouldn't have it any other way.

Jacob was heroic in "holding on" to the covenant promises, knowing full well what they were doing and why.
As was Abraham. As was Moses. As was David.

We have a role to play as servants. A crucial role. And we are rewarded for our service.
Yet the super-determinists excise this gift of glorious service to appease some kind of false humility requirement that their religious code demands.
 
I actually have no problem with "enabled" based upon Scripture like YLT John 6:44 no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

One of the issues for the determinist is that Jesus Christ Himself explains this drawing/enabling as the Father teaching and unbelieving men hearing and learning and then believing.

In our time since the ascension of Christ, the sending of the Spirit to convict/convince the world combined with the power of the Gospel from God concerning His Son - which is all part of Jesus drawing all men to Himself - enables men to make the choice whether to Receive Him or reject Him, which God has given men the freedom to choose either way.

Contrary to your last 2 sentences, the will of fallen man is free to choose. The enablement comes in through being provided the information ultimately by the Spirit of God that fallen men must choose to Receive or reject. There will be no excuse because God Himself knows what has been made clear to all men and why they have rejected it and Him.

BTW, Cameron, most all of us acknowledge the work of God as primary in this. It's a fallacy that we don't.
I have yet to hear how "rewards" work in the Calvinist economy.
Because, you know, according to them, we have no standing or merit and don't deserve any.

Same goes for judgment. That fails in the super-determinist model as well.
 
To fall for the lie that man is not spiritually dead, is to agree with Satan that man would not die upon eating the forbidden fruit. It is to side with Satan and call God a liar in the matter of spiritual death.
Dead means dead. It does not mean wounded, it does no mean disabled, it means dead and without life!
There is not a single verse in ALL of Scripture where the word die—or any of its directly related forms such as death, dying, etc.—means anything other than death. NOT ONCE does die ever refer to a mere state of temporary sickness, of being unwell, or of a non-fatal injury, which would imply some hope of recovery within a man’s reach, which is the baseless, indefensible definition given by pseudo-Christian, who hold to the doctrine of man’s free will.

Only when a man is made alive again to God by His Holy Spirit, and given the gift of Faith to believe God's Gospel can a man be said to be spiritually alive unto God.

I'll bet you can't define "spiritually dead" in a way that will satisfy all of us.

Dead in sin means separated from God, not that a person lacks all capacity to respond to His drawing to His Son to resolve the separation.
 
It isn't easy to reinterpret that everyone who signs up for the swim party will be given arm floaties to mean that everyone who is given arm floaties will sign up for the swim party, it takes a lot of determination and will power.

Who needs logic when we have determinism...