Maybe you missed my point? I thought that was what I said. Giving man's dominion over the earth to satan is code talk for, they sinned against the Lord!
Sorry if I was unclear.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Maybe you missed my point? I thought that was what I said. Giving man's dominion over the earth to satan is code talk for, they sinned against the Lord!
Sorry if I was unclear.
I do wish people would give reasons why they say things here.
Neither do I get any answer when I ask, inat least 4 occasions.i haven't had an answer cv5
Just simple questions to it's almost like when cv5 said in an earlier post, that wasn't an artful dodge, he knows how to play that game all to well
But we do have free will and you use it every day. Every decision you make you use free will.
Edward, that is not the crux of the conversation. This has been explained to you already.
Choosing fries over salad has zero bearing on the eternal fate of your soul.
We are discussing what the Bible says of man. Not what philosophy or humanism says.
People making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing it in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.
This is the crux of the conversation, such as it is, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit, and there are none good, no, not one! But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, such as nothing good lives in man's flesh, and flesh serves the law of sin, and brings forth fruit unto death, all in favor of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said. In fact they routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated.
Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge.
Tell that to Moses. In fact it was God Who showed restraint in/of His OWN free will.
Can you show me in the Bible where it explains that we cannot exercise our free will?
Because I can show from the Bible where Theologians and Scholars explain is free will in the Bible.
Thought you meant something like you've said in this comment but it was a messy one for sure. Not dissing you for it, i've posted many messy comments myself and have no probs being corrected either.
No Edward, everyday, as i have had to repeat ad nauseam on this thread of mine, i exercise choice and will. If they impact others too much, it's most likely i won't be able to, as they'll interfere with their choice and free will.
You Free Willers often don't think things through, sadly, in many ways.
So is there two different kinds of free will? One for choosing who will be our God and another for, what shall I eat for dinner?
That would seem fundamentally wrong to me. Free will is free will. It is written, I set therefore before you death and life, therefore choose life.
I find it fascinating that these Calvinist focus intensely upon the ONE seemingly ambiguous (its not) verse, Ephesians 2:8, and jettison the dozens and hundreds of others that describe "faith" so plainly that any child could not fail to understand.
And not only that, this focus/ignore phenomenon is an ongoing pattern of behavior.
Then comes the heresies and fallacies.
Edward, what part of, we are discussing what the Bible says of man, do you not understand?
I gave you many, many examples of what the Bible says, and you want to talk about what?
That you can choose what colour of socks to wear so the Bible is wrong?
Making choices does not equate to having a will that is free. Start there.
Man makes choices out of his nature. Men are born by nature as children of wrath. Opposed to God. God haters.
Part of the issue here is defining what "free will" is. If someone has had any schooling or done much of any reading in philosophy let alone theology based back in the early church fathers and such, then they are likely dealing with and thinking of free will in terms of philosophy. It's thus a typical confused and opinionated mess. IMO it's not worth dealing with the terminology when we can just as easily drop "free" and speak of human will, volition, choice, etc., and do our best to keep the philosophy out of the discussion.
If you can show what you say you can in and from the Bible, why not just do so?
Agree. The arguments to the contrary are patently absurd.
BTW, objective true free will demolishes the "pre-birth sovereign lottery" theory to bits.
Which of course leaves the super-determinists without a mechanism for their own supposed salvation.
You've already posted many comments claiming that previously, equally as erroneous as that one.
What part of "taken captive to do the will of the devil" do you not understand? .
PS you often have trouble defining things, especially when you strip words of their meaning to suit your presups.
So basically you are running your OPINIONS but can't use the Bible to prove what you say.
The truth is they have zero verses articulating what they believe.
Weigh that against the dozens we have. But they have made an idol of man's will and call it freedom.
Freedom to ignore what the Bible actually says, and to contradict and deny it at every turn, is the forte of the FWer.
It is a vain self-exalting ideology.
That topic has already been discussed.
The conclusion is that although the "degrees of freedom" whereby individual will may be enabled might be constrained (we cannot flap our arms and achieve escape velocity), the quality of will is in fact inherently free, this by intention and design.
True free will is baked in the creation cake. On purpose.
