Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

why do you get so upset when we state that all men = all men??? ... just because they are drawn does not mean they are saved ... God allows men to reject and as you have stated "No mere finite, fallible, weak, feeble, impotent mortal can thwart God's plans or purposes or frustrate them" ... so folks not believing when God draws them is no surprise to God ... mankind will have no excuse come judgment day ... all will know that they rejected God.
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Because universal sounding terms are frequently used in the limited sense. Why can't you understand that "all" is often used in the qualitative sense and not the quantitative sense.

And, yes, according to Jn 6, Jesus taught that all the Father gives (draws to Him) he will resurrect on the last day.

Also, why would God draw all men in the quantitative sense since you have just basically conceded that God knows who will come to Jesus and who won't. So, what is the point to God drawing people to his Son that He knows fully well will never go to Him? You paint God as this confused, village idiot who doesn't know what He's doing. And in your universe, this kind of thinking makes good sense? "I'm going to draw all men w/o exception to my Son even though I knew in eternity that only small remnant would actually be drawn to Him."

 

[Rufus]

yes ... in vs 9, Jesus was praying specifically for His disciples and He later expands His prayer to include others.





not in the same sense.





ever hear of reading with comprehension ... although I don't really believe you're interested in comprehending ... you seem bent on reading with a goal of disagreement to further your effort at brawling.
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Then how does the sense differ in vv. 9 and 21? Pray tell...don't keep us in the dark!

 

[sawdust]

If the wages of sin is physical death and Jesus paid for that, why do we still die physically?

Because God did not, at this time, remove the sin nature in the flesh which causes all manner of physical degradation. He saved our souls in the present but our bodies will have to wait for the Resurrection.

And it should be noted all will be raised up bodily, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting condemnation once again affirming Christ died for all and also affirming the wages of sin is not the lake of fire.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You should read my posts. You might learn something.

rolleyes ... spoken like the most humble person you claim to be !!!

I'll be back to reply to the rest of your post ... got grandkids to play with
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[cv5]

But it was God that brought man near to Himself.

God presented Himself as a Burning Bush to Moses and Moses said in Verse 3 I WILL TURN AND LOOK AT THE BUSH ON FIRE.

God presented Himself to Moses and Moses chooses to do the right thing just like David explained in Psalms 65:4.

*****"I WILL"*****

Two words that the super-determinists love to hate.

 

[Cameron143]

Because God did not, at this time, remove the sin nature in the flesh which causes all manner of physical degradation. He saved our souls in the present but our bodies will have to wait for the Resurrection.

And it should be noted all will be raised up bodily, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting condemnation once again affirming Christ died for all and also affirming the wages of sin is not the lake of fire.

So on the cross, Jesus paid for our physical death, but we still die. He wasn't very successful.
If Jesus didn't sin, how did He die? If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus never sinned, why did He die?

 

[Genez]

why do you get so upset when we state that all men = all men??? ... just because they are drawn does not mean they are saved ... God allows men to reject and as you have stated "No mere finite, fallible, weak, feeble, impotent mortal can thwart God's plans or purposes or frustrate them" ... so folks not believing when God draws them is no surprise to God ... mankind will have no excuse come judgment day ... all will know that they rejected God.
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He gets upset because he craves to be unmovably dogmatic, masculinely strong (macho), and unchallengeable.

Might be wrong.
That is how he comes across.

 

[Genez]

No man has to bring himself to any sin; for all men are intrinsically evil.

The better question would be: Did God leave most of them in their sin?

Why should I answer your question when you pushed aside and avoided answering mine?

That's rude.

I'll try again.

Do you think they thought themselves to be self righteous?

 

[Kroogz]

Can't be. God gives his grace/favor only to the humble, which hardly describes each and every person in the world w/o exception.

Rom 5:15
But the gracious gift is not like the offense. For if by the offense of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many.

And very noticable that you won't follow up on," Were you a humble man or a prideful man when you received Grace?"

You and all your buddies preach and teach that man cannot humble themselves before God.

Yet, you received Grace.

You obviously know the conundrum you are in. And so do all your reformed friends on this thread.

Let the word salads begin!!!

 

[BillyBob]

Your 65:4 is the incorrect translation which is why I presented it found in the actual Hebrew Tanakh.

And yes, your post proves you definitely don't know Hebrew at all and that's tremendously sad knowing that's the Language God used to write the entire Old Testament aside from the few Verses in Aramaic which is very close to Hebrew as it gets.

I'm surprised that they did not hire you to correct the NKJV of the Bible.
BTW - I know Pig Latin, and I say you do not know what you speak of!

 

[Kroogz]

exactly ... born again ... feed on milk of the Word ... grow and mature to the point where the meat of the Word can be eaten ... God is at work within bringing the believer to maturity to the point where we are no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Eph 4:14).

Praise God for His lovingkindness, mercy, grace ...
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I completely agree. After salvation, we have work to do......Grow in His Grace and knowledge.

And It is very obvious of the folks who PERSONALLY / free willingly take that serious.

Most are just growing in natural mans thinking.

 

[BillyBob]

But it was God that brought man near to Himself.

God presented Himself as a Burning Bush to Moses and Moses said in Verse 3 I WILL TURN AND LOOK AT THE BUSH ON FIRE.

God presented Himself to Moses and Moses chooses to do the right thing just like David explained in Psalms 65:4.

Again, the burning bush was God's way of getting the attention of Moses, and that it caused him to turn.

 

[sawdust]

So on the cross, Jesus paid for our physical death, but we still die. He wasn't very successful.
If Jesus didn't sin, how did He die? If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus never sinned, why did He die?

Everyone is going to be raised bodily. I'd say that's successful. You sound like a teenager wanting everything right now!

 

[Cameron143]

Everyone is going to be raised bodily. I'd say that's successful. You sound like a teenager wanting everything right now!

Can you please answer the questions I asked?

 

[sawdust]

Can you please answer the questions I asked?

I've answered that many times, He died because He bore our sins in His body.

Why won't you acknowledge the punishment Christ suffered was finite not everlasting?

 

[Genez]

I've answered that many times, He died because He bore our sins in His body.

Why won't you acknowledge the punishment Christ suffered was finite not everlasting?

Maybe this might help?

He died *physically* because he finished with the work of having to die spiritually (as a man) by coming in contact with our sins.

He bearing our sins, was making direct contact with our sins, as our sins were transferred, like the priest would transfer a persons sins to the animal, was to be killed.

Becoming fully as a man made him to be the absolutely perfect substitutionary sacrifice for bearing the sins of every human.

grace and peace ...........

 

[sawdust]

Maybe this might help?

He died *physically* because he finished with the work of having to die spiritually (as a man) by coming in contact with our sins.

He bearing our sins, was making direct contact with our sins, as our sins were transferred, like the priest would transfer a persons sins to the animal, was to be killed.

Becoming fully as a man made him to be the absolutely perfect substitutionary sacrifice for bearing the sins of every human.

grace and peace ...........

That might help those who recognise Christ's suffering had a limit, not sure it will help those who think Christ bore the everlasting wrath of God the Father.

 

[Genez]

That might help those who recognise Christ's suffering had a limit, not sure it will help those who think Christ bore the everlasting wrath of God the Father.

In one sense.... The Lake of Fire is the everlasting condemnation of God.

To change, would mean that God makes mistakes.

 

[Cameron143]

I've answered that many times, He died because He bore our sins in His body.

Why won't you acknowledge the punishment Christ suffered was finite not everlasting?

I do admit Christ's suffering was finite, but it was the equivalent of the eternal punishment for all believers. It is the Lake of Fire...the second death...we are saved from. And we are saved from it because on the cross our sin debt is paid and we are no longer under condemnation. This is why we don't suffer the second death. It can't possibly be physical death we're saved from because we all die physically.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You should read my posts. You might learn something.

non sequitur ... if and when you curb your emotions, we should be able to discuss Scripture in a rational and Christ-like manner ... you know, Cameron143 and I do not always see eye to eye but we are (for the most part) courteous and respectful toward each other ... just sayin'

Your post clearly implied that God gave EQUAL opportunity to all in the wilderness.

only because you "presupposed" that I was referring to "a bunch of Israelites [who] had already died" ... when clearly only those who were alive at the time were the ones who could gaze upon the bronze serpent.

God ELECTED who He would save from death, which was only the group that didn't die before the serpent was erected. In fact, the bronze serpent incident is great illustration of the truth taught in Rom 9:21! Were not all the Israelites made from "one clump of clay"? Yet, we see in the Numbers narrative that God sovereignly set aside from that one lump a second lump in order to save them. Very Kool, right? There we have it! Selective Salvation!

It is not "very Kool" when you consider the full record beginning with the exodus from Egypt to entry into the promised land ... the reason some "died in the wilderness" before entering the promised land is clearly revealed in Numbers 14 when the children of Israel refused to go into the promised land ... which was 40 days after they left Egypt ... but they rejected the witness of Joshua and Caleb.

God told them that only those who were "twenty years old and upward" (Num 14:29) would enter the promised land. Moses himself did not enter ... although God granted him grace and Moses saw the land (Deut 34:1).

So it wasn't that "God sovereignly set aside" only those who were alive at the time ... it was because of God's JUDGMENT that not all were alive ... and Miriam and Aaron had passed at the time ... there were probably others who were believers but were no longer surviving due to the catastrophic event we read about in Numbers 14.
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