Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
How blessed the condemned will be in Mat 7:23 for all eternity, since they will have avoided that dreadful "shotgun wedding". :rolleyes:
Preaching the message that God created men for the express purpose of casting them into eternal fire again are we?

Sounds positively ghoulish. Count me out.
 
Then what does "foreknowledge" in Rom 8:29 mean? What is the significance to "foreknowing"? It certainly cannot mean that God "foreknew" all mankind w/o exception.

Am I really that hard to understand? I thought I explained it fairly well.

God foreknowing people is Him seeing Himself in a relationship with believers. He is knowing them as opposed to not knowing them Matt.7:23 It is relational knowing like "I know my spouse". Omniscience and foreknowledge are two different "branches" of God's knowing. God knows who are believers and who are unbelievers from His omniscience. Election etc is predicated on His foreknowledge ergo, only believers are elected etc. Election is God choosing what to do with believers, it is not Him determining who will be a believer.
 
So..in that case.
What we have been doing is all a waste of time?

That we should simply be existing somewhere doing what God wants?
Never knowing that there are unbelievers someplace else hidden?

Lord! Snap your fingers and make it RIGHT!
Burn up Satan, and make the others uptight!


Forget about choice!
Forget about choosing!


There'll be no winners.
There'll be no losing.


Make it SIMPLE!
With nothing........... confusing.


Upon your premise,
I just went musing.



.


Your poems make me chuckle. :)
 
From-Romans6-16-18s.png

From Romans 6:16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
:)
 
From-Romans6-16-18s.png

From Romans 6:16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
:)
Magenta...

Heads up...

Might want to keep a software update waiting in the wings.

This forum can be viewed in different regions in the world.
England, France, Germany, Turkey, etc...

Word has it that the way things are presently going in Europe?
You may soon need to create your Scripture presentations
with pretty ladies wearing a Burka.

I wish I were only joking, but not sure if I am.

We have to be free to witness to Muslims.
 
Am I really that hard to understand? I thought I explained it fairly well.

God foreknowing people is Him seeing Himself in a relationship with believers. He is knowing them as opposed to not knowing them Matt.7:23 It is relational knowing like "I know my spouse". Omniscience and foreknowledge are two different "branches" of God's knowing. Election is God choosing what to do with believers, it is not Him determining who will be a believer.
Agree 💯
 
The Significance to God's Temple in the Garden (Pt 2/2)

The more I ponder and meditate on Rev 21-22, the more impressed I became by it's overarching, multifaceted theme that will permeate the Eternal New Order: unity, love, joy, peace, tranquility, safety, comfort, security and harmony that will extend to all life in the New Order. The wolf will lie down with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf, lion and yearling will rest together, the infant will play by the cobra's hole and the young child will put his hand in the viper's nest -- and in none of these scenarios will any harm or destruction come to any creature in God's holy mountain (Isa 11:6-9). And all this stands very sharp contrast to this existing Old Order that is literally marked by division, division and more division. If anyone wants to get a good handle on this fact, look up the Hebrew word "badal" (Strong's H914) and let your fingers do the walking. The word appears in the OT about 42 times and it's translated "divide, separate, set apart, sever, distinction," etc. And we see this division immediately in the creation account when God divided/separated light from darkness, the waters below and above the firmament, the sea from the dry land, the night from the day, etc., etc. None of these divisions will be found in the New Order!

As I explained previously, I used to think that Adam's spiritual death was because God removed his Holy Spirit from Adam after he sinned (such as God did with king Saul), since He is the Spirit of Life. In one sense, however, I still think this is true but it still misses the thrust of the creation account, plus the indwelling Holy Spirit appears to be unique to the inaugural phase (this current Church Age) of the New Covenant. Yet, the saints in the New Order will experience the full, final and eternal magnitude of God's Grace by their presence in God and the Lamb (the eternal Temple). The saints will still be *IN* Christ by virtue of being *IN* the Temple (The Holy Presence), which evidently will fill the entire new earth.. And once this fact dawned on me, it changed my perspective of how Adam died spiritually when he sinned. In fact, I believe the New Jerusalem is the Church -- it is the Body of Christ. So...if this is true, then Temple in Rev 21 will be *IN* the City of God.

While many professing Christians will deny that spiritual death = separation from God's Life (on very flimsy arguments I might add), nonetheless that is exactly what happened in the Garden. Here's the biblical evidence:

1. A&E separated themselves from God by fleeing from His Presence after they sinned (Gen 3:8).
2. God's anger burned against Adam so He unceremoniously drove him out from His Holy Presence (Gen 3:21-24)
3. God's eyes are too pure to even look upon evil (Hab 1:13)
4. Man's sins separate him from God (Isa 59:2).
5. Spiritual Principles: What can righteousness have to do with wickedness (2Cor 6:14)?
6. Or what fellowship can there be between light and darkness (2Cor 6:14)?
7. Or what agreement can there be between the Temple of God and the idols of men (2Cor 6:14)?
8. Unrepentant sinners being darkened in their understanding are separated from the Life of God (Eph 4:18).
9. The enemies of God, due to their evil behavior, are alienated from Him (Col 1:21).
10. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him (Rom 8:9).

The big question, then, is this: What is Spiritual Death? But maybe first, we should find the answer to: What is Death? James tells us that physical death consists of the separation of the soul from the body (Jas 2:26). The soul is, evidently, the animating force that enables men to live physically in temporal reality. God has given all the physically living this capacity.

But God has also given man another capacity: He created man to also live with Him, worship Him, enjoy Him, to fellowship with Him, to commune with Him, to serve Him, to glorify Him, etc. by being intimately and personally connected to His Life which animates spiritual life within man (Eph 4:18). Two different kinds of life, each serving a specific purpose.

There is, however, another biblical way of viewing Death, no matter the kind. Is not Death like Evil and Darkness? As I explained recently, evil is not a thing in and of itself, but rather the absence or deprivation of something, which would be Goodness. Likewise, darkness is the absence of light. We would never know what either of these two things are apart from what has always eternally existed, i.e. Good and Light. And the same can be said for death! If James had said in Jas 2:26 that death consists of the absence of the soul from the body would such a statement change the sense of the text? Death is not an eternal reality because God has always existed. Death became a reality when sin entered temporal reality. Hell itself is a place marked by the absence of any Good, which is why it's also called "outer darkness" -- a place of no light!

So...this brings us full circle back to the final question: How did Adam die spiritually on the day he disobeyed? He died because he desecrated God's Temple in the Garden! He infinitely offended The Holy Presence in the Garden in which Adam was brought to live! Adam became unclean in God's Holy, Sacred Space. Being *IN* the Garden, therefore, is tantamount to being *IN" God and His Son (the Temple in Rev 21). God's Holy Presence filled God's dwelling place (the Garden/Temple). Adam, being mankind's federal head, truly had some very significant advantages over all his progeny, didn't he? None of us came into this dark, fallen, forlorn, corrupt, sin-filled world dwelling in God's Temple. All of us, therefore, come into this world in the state of spiritual death -- dead to God! This world in this age is most certainly not God's Holy Habitation. The saint's Holy Habitation in this world is Christ!
 
God foreknowing people is Him seeing Himself in a relationship with believers. He is knowing them as opposed to not knowing them Matt.7:23 It is relational knowing like "I know my spouse". Omniscience and foreknowledge are two different "branches" of God's knowing. God knows who are believers and who are unbelievers from His omniscience. Election etc is predicated on His foreknowledge ergo, only believers are elected etc. Election is God choosing what to do with believers, it is not Him determining who will be a believer.
Nice try, but no cigar!
God's election is in no way based on what He sees in man. Your whole conclusion is based on the assumption that He chooses some because they are better in some way. ie, they would believe.
The choice is not based on what man may or may not do. It is based on God's good pleasure. Even long ago He chose a nation, but that choice was not based on the fact that they were better in any way........

I know that your desire is to become reformed, but if that's going to happen – you must begin to think differently.
 
The Significance to God's Temple in the Garden (Pt 2/2)

The more I ponder and meditate on Rev 21-22, the more impressed I became by it's overarching, multifaceted theme that will permeate the Eternal New Order: unity, love, joy, peace, tranquility, safety, comfort, security and harmony that will extend to all life in the New Order. The wolf will lie down with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf, lion and yearling will rest together, the infant will play by the cobra's hole and the young child will put his hand in the viper's nest -- and in none of these scenarios will any harm or destruction come to any creature in God's holy mountain (Isa 11:6-9). And all this stands very sharp contrast to this existing Old Order that is literally marked by division, division and more division. If anyone wants to get a good handle on this fact, look up the Hebrew word "badal" (Strong's H914) and let your fingers do the walking. The word appears in the OT about 42 times and it's translated "divide, separate, set apart, sever, distinction," etc. And we see this division immediately in the creation account when God divided/separated light from darkness, the waters below and above the firmament, the sea from the dry land, the night from the day, etc., etc. None of these divisions will be found in the New Order!

As I explained previously, I used to think that Adam's spiritual death was because God removed his Holy Spirit from Adam after he sinned (such as God did with king Saul), since He is the Spirit of Life. In one sense, however, I still think this is true but it still misses the thrust of the creation account, plus the indwelling Holy Spirit appears to be unique to the inaugural phase (this current Church Age) of the New Covenant. Yet, the saints in the New Order will experience the full, final and eternal magnitude of God's Grace by their presence in God and the Lamb (the eternal Temple). The saints will still be *IN* Christ by virtue of being *IN* the Temple (The Holy Presence), which evidently will fill the entire new earth.. And once this fact dawned on me, it changed my perspective of how Adam died spiritually when he sinned. In fact, I believe the New Jerusalem is the Church -- it is the Body of Christ. So...if this is true, then Temple in Rev 21 will be *IN* the City of God.

While many professing Christians will deny that spiritual death = separation from God's Life (on very flimsy arguments I might add), nonetheless that is exactly what happened in the Garden. Here's the biblical evidence:

1. A&E separated themselves from God by fleeing from His Presence after they sinned (Gen 3:8).
2. God's anger burned against Adam so He unceremoniously drove him out from His Holy Presence (Gen 3:21-24)
3. God's eyes are too pure to even look upon evil (Hab 1:13)
4. Man's sins separate him from God (Isa 59:2).
5. Spiritual Principles: What can righteousness have to do with wickedness (2Cor 6:14)?
6. Or what fellowship can there be between light and darkness (2Cor 6:14)?
7. Or what agreement can there be between the Temple of God and the idols of men (2Cor 6:14)?
8. Unrepentant sinners being darkened in their understanding are separated from the Life of God (Eph 4:18).
9. The enemies of God, due to their evil behavior, are alienated from Him (Col 1:21).
10. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him (Rom 8:9).

The big question, then, is this: What is Spiritual Death? But maybe first, we should find the answer to: What is Death? James tells us that physical death consists of the separation of the soul from the body (Jas 2:26). The soul is, evidently, the animating force that enables men to live physically in temporal reality. God has given all the physically living this capacity.

But God has also given man another capacity: He created man to also live with Him, worship Him, enjoy Him, to fellowship with Him, to commune with Him, to serve Him, to glorify Him, etc. by being intimately and personally connected to His Life which animates spiritual life within man (Eph 4:18). Two different kinds of life, each serving a specific purpose.

There is, however, another biblical way of viewing Death, no matter the kind. Is not Death like Evil and Darkness? As I explained recently, evil is not a thing in and of itself, but rather the absence or deprivation of something, which would be Goodness. Likewise, darkness is the absence of light. We would never know what either of these two things are apart from what has always eternally existed, i.e. Good and Light. And the same can be said for death! If James had said in Jas 2:26 that death consists of the absence of the soul from the body would such a statement change the sense of the text? Death is not an eternal reality because God has always existed. Death became a reality when sin entered temporal reality. Hell itself is a place marked by the absence of any Good, which is why it's also called "outer darkness" -- a place of no light!

So...this brings us full circle back to the final question: How did Adam die spiritually on the day he disobeyed? He died because he desecrated God's Temple in the Garden! He infinitely offended The Holy Presence in the Garden in which Adam was brought to live! Adam became unclean in God's Holy, Sacred Space. Being *IN* the Garden, therefore, is tantamount to being *IN" God and His Son (the Temple in Rev 21). God's Holy Presence filled God's dwelling place (the Garden/Temple). Adam, being mankind's federal head, truly had some very significant advantages over all his progeny, didn't he? None of us came into this dark, fallen, forlorn, corrupt, sin-filled world dwelling in God's Temple. All of us, therefore, come into this world in the state of spiritual death -- dead to God! This world in this age is most certainly not God's Holy Habitation. The saint's Holy Habitation in this world is Christ!
How did Adam die spiritually on the day he disobeyed?

The more pertinent question:
How did Adam become a type of Christ when he disobeyed?

Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

No Calvinist that I have encountered knows the correct solution to this question.
But I do. Lucky me huh?

And BTW, this counters this totally depravity nonsense once and for all.
Once does become totally depraved and spiritually dead and a type of Christ (due to a free will decision) simultaneously.
 
How did Adam die spiritually on the day he disobeyed?

The more pertinent question:
How did Adam become a type of Christ when he disobeyed?

Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

No Calvinist that I have encountered knows the correct solution to this question.
But I do. Lucky me huh?

And BTW, this counters this totally depravity nonsense once and for all.
Once does become totally depraved and spiritually dead and a type of Christ (due to a free will decision) simultaneously.
One does become totally depraved and spiritually dead and a type of Christ (due to a free will decision) simultaneously.
 
God's election is in no way based on what He sees in man.

I never said it was. Your thinking that I think there is some quality in man that makes them better is pure nonsense. When you believed, did you suddenly become a better person?

The only thing that makes us "better" is the grace of God in Christ.

Go away and have another try at understanding what I said.
 
I never said it was. Your thinking that I think there is some quality in man that makes them better is pure nonsense.
BillyBob did not say anything about anyone being better, and your thinking he did is pure nonsense.
Go away and have another try at understanding what I said.

What you said:
God foreknowing people is Him seeing Himself in a relationship with believers. He is knowing them as opposed to not knowing them Matt.7:23 It is relational knowing like "I know my spouse". Omniscience and foreknowledge are two different "branches" of God's knowing. God knows who are believers and who are unbelievers from His omniscience. Election etc is predicated on His foreknowledge ergo, only believers are elected etc. Election is God choosing what to do with believers, it is not Him determining who will be a believer.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cv5
Nice try, but no cigar!
God's election is in no way based on what He sees in man. Your whole conclusion is based on the
assumption that He chooses some because they are better in some way. ie, they would believe.
The choice is not based on what man may or may not do. It is based on God's good pleasure. Even long
ago He chose a nation, but that choice was not based on the fact that they were better in any way........

I know that your desire is to become reformed, but if that's going to happen – you must begin to think differently.
They just cannot seem to get it right! And they call believing what Scripture says, stupid.

Their vain self-exalting philosophically based doctrine demands it of them.
 
Nice try, but no cigar!
God's election is in no way based on what He sees in man. Your whole conclusion is based on the assumption that He chooses some because they are better in some way. ie, they would believe.
The choice is not based on what man may or may not do. It is based on God's good pleasure. Even long ago He chose a nation, but that choice was not based on the fact that they were better in any way........

I know that your desire is to become reformed, but if that's going to happen – you must begin to think differently.

Is it God's good pleasure for you to tell us he chooses us with a coin toss?
That there is no real reason to choose us?

Heads - I save him.
Tails - I condemn him?

Is that what you are telling us?
 
  • Like
Reactions: cv5
How did Adam die spiritually on the day he disobeyed?

The more pertinent question:
How did Adam become a type of Christ when he disobeyed?

Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

No Calvinist that I have encountered knows the correct solution to this question.
But I do. Lucky me huh?

And BTW, this counters this totally depravity nonsense once and for all.
Once does become totally depraved and spiritually dead and a type of Christ (due to a free will decision) simultaneously.
Here you go @Rufus . Free of charge.

[Gen 3:22 KJV] 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

Oh and BTW @Rufus , it is obvious that Adam successfully resisted Satan, outsmarted Satan, and in effect DEFEATED Satan. Which amplifies Romans 5:14 don't you know

In fact it seems clear that God created the new and utterly magnificent King Adam as SUPERIOR to the old monarch Satan, as Adam was created in God's image and likeness.

This authentic Biblical Adam nothing like the stupid knuckle dragging weak as water troglodyte you make him out to be.
 
The reason I consider spirit is what was created in Adam at Gen 1:27 is because Gen 2:7 says when God breathed into Adam the breath of lives (plural), Adam became a living soul [Greek = nephesh]. Whatever nephesh consists of was created by God in Gen 1:21 on Day 5, so God did not need to "create" nephesh for Adam.
Now I would argue the "nephesh" of Gen.1:21 is not the nephesh in man by saying the soul of man is created in the image and likeness of God. I believe nephesh, at it's core, is consciousness and only in man is that consciousness fully developed. Animals have nephesh, they are conscious. Plants, bacteria etc do not have nephesh, they are not conscious.
I understand what you are saying ... and to me nephesh is nephesh whether it is nephesh within the living creatures God created on Day 5 ... or within mankind ... Adam came along the next day – Day 6.




sawdust said:
reneweddaybyday said:
But Scripture makes clear that on Day 6, God created man in His own image ... I believe image of God is spirit and this image of God in Adam was separate and distinct from nephesh (Heb 4:12).
I think the image and likeness of God is a reference to the essence of man being invisible (image) and having personhood (likeness). God as the Father (Deity) is spirit but God the Son is both Deity and Humanity (spirit and soul). I think the angels were created in the image and likeness of God too, God the Holy Spirit, hence angels are spirits, men are souls.
God the Son was Deity (Spirit), soul, and body.

please note, I also indicated in Post 7751:

"So when God breathed into Adam the breath of lives (plural), God enlivened Adam's spirit as well as Adam's soul."

which was not addressed in your response.

To me, the fact that God breathed into Adam the breath of lives (plural) indicates that God breathed life into the soul (nephesh) of Adam (something God did not do in the living creatures of Day 5) and which set the nephesh in Adam apart from all other creatures ... and God also breathed into the spirit of Adam (the image of God in which Adam was created).




sawdust said:
reneweddaybyday said:
When Adam sinned, nephesh still gave life to his body ... but he no longer reflected the image of God (in his (Adam's) spirit). And all Adam's descendants were made in the image and likeness of Adam (Gen 5:3). Succeeding generations after that were made in the image and likeness of their parents. You were born after the image and likeness of your father and mother. I was born after the image and likeness of my father and mother.
I see when Adam sinned his spirit returned to God who gave it Ecc.12:7 and his soul retained the image and likeness but the body now had another law at work in it (a genetically formed corruption Rom.7:23 ) Now, as you said, we are born in Adam's image, flesh gives birth to flesh Jn.3:6 , therefore we inherit that corruption. As God cannot abide with corruption and only He can give a spirit, men are now born without a spirit (keeping in mind I believe the human spirit is generated from God, not simply by God Jn.3:6 )
When Adam sinned, the spirit within Adam was drastically affected because that which God breathed into the spirit within Adam returned to God as you have indicated.

The fall of Adam also affected his soul ... into which God also breathed ... because Adam's spirit no longer housed the presence of God, which governed the soul of Adam. The soul could be easily overcome by the human intellect, emotions, senses, and the "another law at work" within.

As I indicated to studier the other day:

I see it as body and soul + spirit without the presence of the Holy Spirit (as I explained at Post 7627). Functionally, it is closely aligned with dichotomous, but I think if we remove spirit altogether, do we then contradict verses in Scripture which speak of the spirit of man?




sawdust said:
I don't have a problem with what you are saying here but I don't see how that applies to creating something out from nothing (bara) compared to giving something of oneself, born of spirit.
God creates a new heart within each born again one at the time he or she believes the gospel of Christ. New life ... something that did not exist prior to you (or I) coming to faith in Christ ... is created within the believer.




sawdust said:
The new creation we are in Christ is not out from nothing, it cost Christ everything nor is it born only (consider the transforming of the mind as well as a new body eventually). I see it's creation a compliation of God's activity.
The cost of what we have within is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about new life ... life that did not exist prior to you or I believing comes into existence the moment we believed.

The transforming of the mind is part of the maturation of the new life created by God when the born again one believed ... the new body is yet future ... new heaven/new earth/new body.

2 Corinthians 5:

1 For we know that if our earthly house [my body] of this tabernacle [the new creation within the born again one] were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands [new bodies we will receive in new heaven/new earth], eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven [new body we will receive in new heaven/new earth]




sawdust said:
Some of the verses you quote I believe are referencing believers and therefore they will have a spirit as they are born again. ie. Job 32:8; Prov 17:27 but some of the others could be using spirit in a more general sense to describe one's life ie Prov.18:14 Ecc.3:21
Clearly God differentiates between spirit of man and soul of man.

However, under Old Covenant, I do not believe it was available to be born again in the same manner we are under New Covenant (after Day of Pentecost). I believe God worked with men and women of faith under Old Covenant ... but what we have in our day and time is not exactly the same.

This truth is spoken of by Jesus Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you (John 16:7).

I believe there is some difference between before Day of Pentecost and after Pentecost.
.