Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

If what you say is true then why do I continue to see the term volitional used?
Does this not relate to the use of one's will?
I also see statements such as : Could it be that rather than "spiritually dead" what occurred in Adam was more in line with "spiritually disabled" ... or "spiritually incapacitated" ... "spiritual paralysis"
Such statements give man credit for an ability that he is no longer capable of, leading to the idea that he does have something to offer in the way of salvation.

Why do you keep freely choosing to do what you do?
You have no free will.
Stop breaking out of the jail and running free as you have been doing.

That sounded pretty stupid, didn't it?

 

[sawdust]

I believe Adam was created (spirit), formed (body), made (soul):

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Created = God brought into existence something that has never been in existence (something from nothing). Adam was created in the image of God (Gen 1:27).

Formed = God formed the body of Adam from the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7).

Made = God breathed into Adam the breath of life (plural) and man became a living soul (Gen 2:7).

If I use your phrases but insert my own understanding I would say:

I believe Adam was created (soul cmp. Gen.1:27 bara), formed (body cmp. Gen.2:7 yatsar), made (combination of the breath of lives breathed into the body cmp. Gen.1:26 asah).

As far as I can see, the same basic word is used in the Isaiah passage as used in the Genesis passages I quoted.

What I have been taught is this:
Created (bara) is something only God can do and while it doesn't necessarily mean "out from nothing", it usually is connected to something coming from nothing.
Formed (yatsar) is like moulding clay in pottery.
Made (asah) is a general putting together a bit like manufacturing a car, we take a bit of this and a bit of that and put it together.

The other thing that I have yet to find in scripture is talk of the (human) spirit being created. I know you see it as being so but Jn3:6 teaches us it is generated from God, not created by Him. This is why I believe God created the soul in Genesis 1:27 and not the spirit. Also the fact that we are called souls all through scripture whereas angels and demons are always referred to as spirits. Thirdly when referring to the natural man in 1Cor.2:14 the Greek word psuchikos (soulish) is used.

I think the reason soul and spirit tend to be seen as the same/similar thing is because souls (people) and angels (spirits) are similar.

Psalm 8:4-5
4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
human beings that you care for them?
5 You have made them a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.

It is speculation on my part, but I wonder if God used the nature of spirit as a basis for creating the soul. (just a thought)

I'm going to leave it there for now but I will say, I also hold closer to Thieme's teaching as per what @studier put forth in another post.

 

[sawdust]

No and absolutely No. If I watch 2 seconds of that I'm about to pass out.

My point was that stuff is about as easy to understand as some of the common terminology used in these threads that has many different definitions in the mind of different speakers/writers. I posted 3 systems that all think of death differently from one verse. I won't begin to tell you how many systems I looked at modeling the differences between them. We might as well all be speaking gibberish.

Whew!

I went back and reread your post several times and did wonder in the end if what you have said here was what you meant.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[cv5]

If what you say is true then why do I continue to see the term volitional used?
Does this not relate to the use of one's will?
I also see statements such as : Could it be that rather than "spiritually dead" what occurred in Adam was more in line with "spiritually disabled" ... or "spiritually incapacitated" ... "spiritual paralysis"
Such statements give man credit for an ability that he is no longer capable of, leading to the idea that he does have something to offer in the way of salvation.

26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

Despite the ludicrous pretentions of the super-determinists, Jacob HELD ON.

@Cameron143 seems to think that I do not understand this passage. I think contrarywise.

 

[Genez]

Am I understanding you correctly that you support what that link sent me to as the work of God?

Sorry, I'm a little confused and surprised it doesn't seem to fit together with your studious presentation.

I watched.

That should be easy to do.

They should make it mandatory for drama students in play acting.

 

[Genez]

26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

Despite the ludicrous pretentions of the super-determinists, Jacob HELD ON.

@Cameron143 seems to think that I do not understand this passage. I think contrarywise.

Seems to be?

Some of us are victims of what some call irresistible disgrace?

?

 

[sawdust]

I watched.

That should be easy to do.

They should make it mandatory for drama students in play acting.

Could be good for singers to warm up with, loosen the tongue and jaw, throw in a few raspberries to loosen the lips and Bob's your uncle.

Just in case you didn't see his post, @studier does not hold to such nonsense either.

 

[Genez]

Could be good for singers to warm up with, loosen the tongue and jaw, throw in a few raspberries to loosen the lips and Bob's your uncle.

Had to get educated in Aussie talk again!

"Bob's your uncle" is a British English idiom meaning "and there you have it,"
"it's done," or "everything is all set."

It's often used to indicate that a task is complete or a result has been achieved,
especially after following simple instructions. The phrase is similar to saying "and
that's that" or "it's a piece of cake".

 

[cv5]

Seems to be?

Some of us are victims of what some call irresistible disgrace?

?

Indigestible ignominy.

 

[Genez]

Indigestible ignominy.

The phrase "indigestible ignominy" refers to a public shame or disgrace
that is deeply felt and cannot be easily processed or overcome.

Had to look it up!

(I was figuring, that when someone is so shameful that others find them hard to stomach)


........

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You'd have to show me how you get to the concept of Adam originally having the Holy Spirit. I'm not requesting you do this work, BTW.

see reply to sawdust below ...

If I use your phrases but insert my own understanding I would say:

I believe Adam was created (soul cmp. Gen.1:27 bara), formed (body cmp. Gen.2:7 yatsar), made (combination of the breath of lives breathed into the body cmp. Gen.1:26 asah).

The reason I consider spirit is what was created in Adam at Gen 1:27 is because Gen 2:7 says when God breathed into Adam the breath of lives (plural), Adam became a living soul [Greek = nephesh]. Whatever nephesh consists of was created by God in Gen 1:21 on Day 5, so God did not need to "create" nephesh for Adam.

But Scripture makes clear that on Day 6, God created man in His own image ... I believe image of God is spirit and this image of God in Adam was separate and distinct from nephesh (Heb 4:12).

So when God breathed into Adam the breath of lives (plural), God enlivened Adam's spirit as well as Adam's soul.

When Adam sinned, nephesh still gave life to his body ... but he no longer reflected the image of God (in his (Adam's) spirit). And all Adam's descendants were made in the image and likeness of Adam (Gen 5:3). Succeeding generations after that were made in the image and likeness of their parents. You were born after the image and likeness of your father and mother. I was born after the image and likeness of my father and mother.

That's how I see this unfold according to Scripture.

As far as I can see, the same basic word is used in the Isaiah passage as used in the Genesis passages I quoted.

What I have been taught is this:
Created (bara) is something only God can do and while it doesn't necessarily mean "out from nothing", it usually is connected to something coming from nothing.
Formed (yatsar) is like moulding clay in pottery.
Made (asah) is a general putting together a bit like manufacturing a car, we take a bit of this and a bit of that and put it together.

how about "a bit of this" (spirit) and "a bit of that" (soul) and "a bit of the other" (body).

In our day and time (after Day of Pentecost) each and every born again one has new life created within him or her ... so once again body, soul, spirit as revealed in 1 Thess 5:23.

The other thing that I have yet to find in scripture is talk of the (human) spirit being created. I know you see it as being so but Jn3:6 teaches us it is generated from God, not created by Him.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

the word "new" in both verses is translated from the Greek word kainos which refers to that which is new kind (unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of). It relates to being not previously present. Those who are born again have a brand new life with a brand new source of power (the Spirit) to live out abundant life Jesus came to give (John 10:10).

The same word kainos is used in 2 Peter 3:13 and Rev 21:1 in reference to the new heaven and new earth which will replace the heaven and earth we currently inhabit.

This is why I believe God created the soul in Genesis 1:27 and not the spirit. Also the fact that we are called souls all through scripture whereas angels and demons are always referred to as spirits. Thirdly when referring to the natural man in 1Cor.2:14 the Greek word psuchikos (soulish) is used.

I think the reason soul and spirit tend to be seen as the same/similar thing is because souls (people) and angels (spirits) are similar.

I generally do not make a big deal about whether we're talking about soul or spirit when it comes to this issue. Once I understand that someone is referring to "soul" as something I refer to as "spirit", I just try to remember to replace "soul" with "spirit" ... or vice versa.

But since we're doing a deep dive into this issue, here are some verses wherein Scripture refers to man having "spirit" (Heb = rûaḥ):

Job 32:8; Prov 17:27; Prov 18:14; Isaiah 66:2; Ecc 3:21; Zech 12:1

Here are some verses wherein Scripture refers to man having "soul" (Heb = nephesh):

Gen 12:5; Gen 12:13; Gen 27:4; Ex 12:15; Num 15:28; Deut 4:9

There are more references ... I just grabbed some ...

It is speculation on my part, but I wonder if God used the nature of spirit as a basis for creating the soul. (just a thought)

I'm going to leave it there for now but I will say, I also hold closer to Thieme's teaching as per what @studier put forth in another post.

I replied to studier here and indicated I am more closely aligned to Thieme’s Trichotomous/Dichotomous View ... with my usual "comments"
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do you believe the soul animates the body?

yes.

Okay...I'm going to give my revised take on what exactly happened in the Garden the day Adam disobeyed. How did Adam die on that day? And for the record, I do believe that Adam literally died on that day! Just because his death wasn't physical doesn't mean that it wasn't a real death with real consequences. I believe God literally exists even though I have no empirical (physical, observable) evidence of his existence.

yes ... agree Adam died on that day ... otherwise our Bibles fall apart at Gen 2:17.

Also, for the record, I formerly believed for many years that Adam spiritually died after he disobeyed God because God removed his Holy Spirit from him the way He did from king Saul after he disobeyed. While there may still be some truth to this understanding, I think it misses what the core of the text says.

well ... something changed ... and it wasn't God ... that caused God and Adam to have a more remote or distant relationship.

As stated previously, I strongly believe that the Garden that God Himself planted in the east of Eden ( Gen 2:8) was nothing less than His sanctuary (temple). God planted the garden, He walked in it, he put Adam in it, He communed with Adam in it and He brought all the animals to the Garden so that Adam could classify and name them.

More evidence for the Garden temple can be gleaned from the fact that cherubim were also in God's presence in the Garden, and God commanded Moses and others after him to carve out images of cherubim first for the Ark,then later for both temples. Also, the artwork for the Ark and subsequent earthly temples all had strong arboreal motifs to them, which very likely reflected back to the original temple in the Garden not built with human hands.

And last but not least, we learn in Rev 21-22 that in the Eternal New Order, God picks up where he left off in the original Garden, and that one more final temple will exist not made with human hands -- that temple being God and the Lamb Himself which will be their holy dwelling place in which the redeemed will dwell with their Creator and Redeemer (Rev 21:8; 22-27).

As stated yesterday, there is an excellent work available by G.K. Beale called The Temple And The Church's Mission that lays all these facts out for whoever is interested. Now...for a very quick overview of all God's dwelling places or more importantly His Holy Presence which inhabited all those holy places; for it was His Holy Presence that made those spaces sacred, e.g. the Holy Land, Holy Place, Holy of Holies, etc.. We, of course, start with the microscopic dwelling of God in a section of Eden. This eventually evolved into the Tent of Meeting in which the Ark of the Covenant was kept. And this evolved into Solomon's first temple and then eventually into the second temple, then that morphed into the Body of Christ being the dwelling place of His Holy Presence by virtue of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and then finally into the macroscopic at the end of this age, i.e. God and His Son both being the Holy Dwelling Place that will extend throughout the entire new earth in which the saints will also dwell with them for all eternity.

interesting points concerning temple worship ...

In the next post, we'll see exactly how Adam literally died spiritually on the day of his disobedience.

you and I have discussed the consequence of the fall of Adam and Eve in the past ... I do not believe we are in agreement ... we shall see how fruitful our discussion will be on this aspect ...
.

 

[NightTwister]

Already been debunked and de-calvinized. Dozens of times.

You tried, but failed.

 

[sawdust]

Had to get educated in Aussie talk again!

"Bob's your uncle" is a British English idiom meaning "and there you have it,"
"it's done," or "everything is all set."

It's often used to indicate that a task is complete or a result has been achieved,
especially after following simple instructions. The phrase is similar to saying "and
that's that" or "it's a piece of cake".

I like to heducat people.

 

[sawdust]

The reason I consider spirit is what was created in Adam at Gen 1:27 is because Gen 2:7 says when God breathed into Adam the breath of lives (plural), Adam became a living soul [Greek = nephesh]. Whatever nephesh consists of was created by God in Gen 1:21 on Day 5, so God did not need to "create" nephesh for Adam.

Now I would argue the "nephesh" of Gen.1:21 is not the nephesh in man by saying the soul of man is created in the image and likeness of God. I believe nephesh, at it's core, is consciousness and only in man is that consciousness fully developed. Animals have nephesh, they are conscious. Plants, bacteria etc do not have nephesh, they are not conscious.

But Scripture makes clear that on Day 6, God created man in His own image ... I believe image of God is spirit and this image of God in Adam was separate and distinct from nephesh (Heb 4:12).

I think the image and likeness of God is a reference to the essence of man being invisible (image) and having personhood (likeness). God as the Father (Deity) is spirit but God the Son is both Deity and Humanity (spirit and soul). I think the angels were created in the image and likeness of God too, God the Holy Spirit, hence angels are spirits, men are souls.

When Adam sinned, nephesh still gave life to his body ... but he no longer reflected the image of God (in his (Adam's) spirit). And all Adam's descendants were made in the image and likeness of Adam (Gen 5:3). Succeeding generations after that were made in the image and likeness of their parents. You were born after the image and likeness of your father and mother. I was born after the image and likeness of my father and mother.

I see when Adam sinned his spirit returned to God who gave it Ecc.12:7 and his soul retained the image and likeness but the body now had another law at work in it (a genetically formed corruption Rom.7:23 ) Now, as you said, we are born in Adam's image, flesh gives birth to flesh Jn.3:6 , therefore we inherit that corruption. As God cannot abide with corruption and only He can give a spirit, men are now born without a spirit (keeping in mind I believe the human spirit is generated from God, not simply by God Jn.3:6 )

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

the word "new" in both verses is translated from the Greek word kainos which refers to that which is new kind (unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of). It relates to being not previously present. Those who are born again have a brand new life with a brand new source of power (the Spirit) to live out abundant life Jesus came to give (John 10:10).

The same word kainos is used in 2 Peter 3:13 and Rev 21:1 in reference to the new heaven and new earth which will replace the heaven and earth we currently inhabit.

I don't have a problem with what you are saying here but I don't see how that applies to creating something out from nothing (bara) compared to giving something of oneself, born of spirit. The new creation we are in Christ is not out from nothing, it cost Christ everything nor is it born only (consider the transforming of the mind as well as a new body eventually). I see it's creation a compliation of God's activity.

But since we're doing a deep dive into this issue, here are some verses wherein Scripture refers to man having "spirit" (Heb = rûaḥ):

Some of the verses you quote I believe are referencing believers and therefore they will have a spirit as they are born again. ie. Job 32:8; Prov 17:27 but some of the others could be using spirit in a more general sense to describe one's life ie Prov.18:14 Ecc.3:21

 

[cv5]

Now I would argue the "nephesh" of Gen.1:21 is not the nephesh in man by saying the soul of man is created in the image and likeness of God. I believe nephesh, at it's core, is consciousness and only in man is that consciousness fully developed. Animals have nephesh, they are conscious. Plants, bacteria etc do not have nephesh, they are not conscious.



I think the image and likeness of God is a reference to the essence of man being invisible (image) and having personhood (likeness). God as the Father (Deity) is spirit but God the Son is both Deity and Humanity (spirit and soul). I think the angels were created in the image and likeness of God too, God the Holy Spirit, hence angels are spirits, men are souls.



I see when Adam sinned his spirit returned to God who gave it Ecc.12:7 and his soul retained the image and likeness but the body now had another law at work in it (a genetically formed corruption Rom.7:23 ) Now, as you said, we are born in Adam's image, flesh gives birth to flesh Jn.3:6 , therefore we inherit that corruption. As God cannot abide with corruption and only He can give a spirit, men are now born without a spirit (keeping in mind I believe the human spirit is generated from God, not simply by God Jn.3:6 )



I don't have a problem with what you are saying here but I don't see how that applies to creating something out from nothing (bara) compared to giving something of oneself, born of spirit. The new creation we are in Christ is not out from nothing, it cost Christ everything nor is it born only (consider the transforming of the mind as well as a new body eventually). I see it's creation a compliation of God's activity.



Some of the verses you quote I believe are referencing believers and therefore they will have a spirit as they are born again. ie. Job 32:8; Prov 17:27 but some of the others could be using spirit in a more general sense to describe one's life ie Prov.18:14 Ecc.3:21

I think the image and likeness of God is a reference to the essence of man being invisible (image) and having personhood (likeness). God as the Father (Deity) is spirit but God the Son is both Deity and Humanity (spirit and soul). I think the angels were created in the image and likeness of God too, God the Holy Spirit, hence angels are spirits, men are souls.

God as creator reversed entropy (the תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ‎ ṯōhū wāḇōhū) in Genesis 1:2. And will gradually reverse entropy in the millennium.
God gave His created Adam the same capacity in limited form. So I think that this is part of image and likeness. See our creative abilities in this day and age. Not necessarily "good" at all times or in all things, but certainly notable in effect.

[Gen 2:15 KJV]
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Just food for thought.

 

[HeIsHere]

26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.

Despite the ludicrous pretentions of the super-determinists, Jacob HELD ON.

@Cameron143 seems to think that I do not understand this passage. I think contrarywise.

If you do not add in the layer of Calvinism then they think you do not understand, but instead it is their minds which are captive to reading everything with that layer first.

So many passages are not about individual salvation or the plan of salvation, but they insist they are, as if God has nothing else to say except to repeat Himself over and over again about His pre-selected exceptional ones.

They counter with, "God can do as He chooses" but they ignore He does not go against His nature.
But then again, they have that wrong by necessity as well.

 

[sawdust]

I think the image and likeness of God is a reference to the essence of man being invisible (image) and having personhood (likeness). God as the Father (Deity) is spirit but God the Son is both Deity and Humanity (spirit and soul). I think the angels were created in the image and likeness of God too, God the Holy Spirit, hence angels are spirits, men are souls.

God as creator reversed entropy (the תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ‎ ṯōhū wāḇōhū) in Genesis 1:2. And will gradually reverse entropy in the millennium.
God gave His created Adam the same capacity in limited form. So I think that this is part of image and likeness. See our creative abilities in this day and age. Not necessarily "good" at all times or in all things, but certainly notable in effect.

[Gen 2:15 KJV]
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Just food for thought.

You could be right. When I say "personhood", I'm thinking of all the things that go into making us a human being, creativity being one of those attributes. The capacity for self-awareness, semi-transendence, language, having personality and the ability to build character as well are things I see as being made in God's likeness.

 

[BillyBob]

You tried, but failed.

I agree! Even with out-stretched arms HE FAILED!

 

[lrs68]

I agree! Even with out-stretched arms HE FAILED!

Just curious here, does this statement when you read it look like someone saying this by their own choice or by having words forced upon them and they're repeating these words?

And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.