Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

If Paul wanted to refer to pistis (“faith”), he could have written the feminine haute, instead of the neuter touto, and his meaning would have been clear.
Given the entirety of scripture where Abraham was justified by faith it really seems illogical that God gives what He requires.

As well,
Romans 6:23

For the payoff of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So while we can dig down to the grammar, and there may be some room for debate, it still has to align with the entire Gospel message.

The gift in Eph. 4:8 is salvation. Salvation (being saved), is our justification, righteousness and eternal life gifted to us by God by His grace, on account of our faith

So you think God giving his only begotten Son to this world is illogical, since the Son did everything all the time in all circumstances that His Father required of humanity?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yup! The God of the bible is.

I agree .

Does his wrath being provoked change his behavior towards mankind ?

 

[Rufus]

“God who is the First Mover “

right this is his move for all humanity

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

his move is the gospel and great commission

But man's ways are NOT in himself. Therefore, God's must be moving in each person's personal life per the examples I gave.

 

[Cameron143]

lol I thought for a moment….

“I never said judgment isn't done according to works. We will all give an account for the things we do.”

but then …eeerch !!

“Who are those who do good? Are they not those who are saved? Didn't God save us that we would do good works? Do those who are not saved do good works? Or are they self-seeking ?”


Its like discussing with yoda

lets go back for just a second to here

“I never said judgment isn't done according to works. We will all give an account for the things we do.”

So then what is gods sovereign choice of who to save based upon ? Remembering he knows the end , from the beginning ?

Is his decision based upon what he said it is ?

In other words

“and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Judgment also includes not only works, but the motivations behind the works. This is why the only one qualified to judge is God Himself, because He alone can discern the intentions of the heart.”

Yeah I agree with this statement but

If you’re acknowledging judgement according to what we do and even our motivations then what’s the determining factor of gods “ sovereign choice “ knowing he has foreknowledge ?


Also a seperate question , is your argument god caused them to do the good or evil they did ? Then rewards the ones he caused to do good and punish the ones he caused to do evil ?

And for sure you aren’t saying God simply soveriengly chose who would be saved before creation regardless of knowing thier works ?

The verses you employ concerning judgment are descriptions of 2 different types of people. One group does good and the other does not. No where in those verses does it state how they came to such estates.
No one in the first group is unsaved. They are walking in the works prepared for them. No one in the second group is saved. They are merely walking according to the flesh and live to themselves.

While God foreknows all things, when it comes to God choosing a people to Himself, He doesn't choose based on WHAT He knows, but WHOM He foreknew...Romans 8:29. The emphasis is not on a body of knowledge, but a body of people; and not what He knew about each, but of a relationship He has with them even before time as we understand it began. So as I understand, God isn't responding the activity of men, but is acting on choices He has already made.

A good example is the nation Israel. God tells us why He chose them. He chose them because of His love for them...His choice, and because He made a promise to Abraham...His choice.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Or did God give each and every person in the nations equal chance to participate in the Abrahamic Covenant?

God's covenant referred to Abraham's seed (singular) ...

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

so in answer to your question ... yes! God gave each and every person in the nations equal "chance" to participate by grace through faith.
.

 

[Rufus]

I agree .

Does his wrath being provoked change his behavior towards mankind ?

Well...God does LOVE the righteous...BUT frustrates (restrains, upsets) the ways of the wicked (Ps 146:9). And this passage also strongly supports God's sovereignty in actively dealing day by day with the sons of men (Prov 16:1, 9, 33; 19:21; 20:24; 21:1; Isa 46:10; Jer 10:23; Dan 5:23; Act 4:23-28; Rom 9:14-18).

 

[Burn1986]

After they left Egypt, they could no longer return. God brought them out of Egypt and led them by a cloud during the day and God gave them light at night (Ex 13:21).

1 Corinthians 10:1-6 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

They were "baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" ... the cloud covered them before they reach the sea ... they could not go back.

Same with born again believers ... we cannot go back to the old sinful lifestyle ... we should read and study those things of which God would not have us ignorant.

1 Corinthians 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
.

Did you answer the question with all of that? You’re an expert copy and paster. In light of “free will” this is a conundrum. The choices of the Israelites at the Red Sea was: get murdered by the Egyptian army, or go into the Red Sea. Basically, they had no choice, so this would support the idea that - we have free will to (1) Die or (2) Bend to God’s will.

 

[Magenta]

Given the entirety of scripture where Abraham was justified by faith it really seems illogical that God gives what He requires.

Really? It is required for us to have a circumcised heart. Did you circumcise your own heart?

 

[Rufus]

God's covenant referred to Abraham's seed (singular) ...

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

so in answer to your question ... yes! God gave each and every person in the nations equal "chance" to participate by grace through faith.
.

So, Abraham isn't the spiritual father of all believers -- believers who come from every nation or virtually nation under the sun? You do not see the fulfillment of the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant in this New Covenant age?

 

[Rufus]

Really? It is required for us to have a circumcised heart. Did you circumcise your own heart?

Of course she did! Don't you know that HIH is Wonder Woman in disguise?

 

[Burn1986]

So, Abraham isn't the spiritual father of all believers -- believers who come from every nation or virtually nation under the sun? You do not see the fulfillment of the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant in this New Covenant age?

In re to free will, try speaking English. “Covenant, New Covenant Age, virtually, Abrahamic, etc…” It’s too many big words.

 

[BillyBob]

Saving grace can put him on life support and bring him to, so he can hear what is needed to be understood!

In other words, regeneration?

 

[Magenta]

Of course she did! Don't you know that HIH is Wonder Woman in disguise?

Well, it does also seem necessary that one's incurably wicked heart be circumcised before it can be moved to believing the things it is otherwise opposed to as a God hater... and she certainly believes her decision to believe what in the unregenerated state is heard as foolishness preceded her being made alive and having her heart circumcised. The self-exalting position is quite a mixed up theology.

 

[NightTwister]

You should do a little more homework on fallacious argumentation. Your response to me about the dictionary had at least 4 forms of fallacy I could identify, including ad hominem.

Ignore is your best bet.

Moving on.

Hey, just an fyi, they spent months trash talking another poster while complaining about that same poster
trash talking them, and then one day announced it was all done to keep the other busy and entertained.
You need hip waders to get through people's double standards.

They don't really "move on" either.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That's certainly part of the equation.

“Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The terminology of marriage to god comes from entering a covenant with him . It’s like a marriage vow to be faithful to one another. Based on the words spoken at the marriage . They were his chosen bRide.

abut they continually commuted adultery worshipping false gods one generation would obey and then they would fall back into idolatry which was the first commandment of thou shalt nots in the law he would raise them back up , they would obey for a short time and fall back to idolatry ect like a wife who keeps cheating on her hard working honorable husband who’s upholding his vow to her to be faithful but eventually …..because of her actions the marriage vow is broken by her not him but by her . Even though annercufo hisband forgives eventually he’ll be saying “ I was a husband to her but my covenant she broke “

When I asked you about foreknowledge I was thinking of this after he dwelt with them for a time just as Moses was about to die he exhibits his foreknowledge of the people and tboer deeds ahead knowing thier hearts and judgements according to it are pronounced beforhand according to what he knows they will do

This is what I was saying

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. “
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16-18,KJV‬‬

He knew thier works beforehand and his judgements are according to those works he knew they would do . By his Foreknowledge he works all things to bring to pass his plan seen in revelation 21

 

[Burn1986]

“Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The terminology of marriage to god comes from entering a covenant with him . It’s like a marriage vow to be faithful to one another. Based on the words spoken at the marriage . They were his chosen bRide.

abut they continually commuted adultery worshipping false gods one generation would obey and then they would fall back into idolatry which was the first commandment of thou shalt nots in the law he would raise them back up , they would obey for a short time and fall back to idolatry ect like a wife who keeps cheating on her hard working honorable husband who’s upholding his vow to her to be faithful but eventually …..because of her actions the marriage vow is broken by her not him but by her . Even though annercufo hisband forgives eventually he’ll be saying “ I was a husband to her but my covenant she broke “

When I asked you about foreknowledge I was thinking of this after he dwelt with them for a time just as Moses was about to die he exhibits his foreknowledge of the people and tboer deeds ahead knowing thier hearts and judgements according to it are pronounced beforhand according to what he knows they will do

This is what I was saying

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. “
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16-18,KJV‬‬

He knew thier works beforehand and his judgements are according to those works he knew they would do . By his Foreknowledge he works all things to bring to pass his plan seen in revelation 21

That’s a lot of good stuff, but where was your connection to “free will”? The overall message (in the OT) from God to the people was - you’re never gonna make it without discipline. Then His message (in the NT) to the people was - I’ll put my Spirit within you to produce obedience and then you’ll make it.

 

[Rufus]

Did you answer the question with all of that? You’re an expert copy and paster. In light of “free will” this is a conundrum. The choices of the Israelites at the Red Sea was: get murdered by the Egyptian army, or go into the Red Sea. Basically, they had no choice, so this would support the idea that - we have free will to (1) Die or (2) Bend to God’s will.

There is a marked shortage of critical thinkers on this thread...so sadly "copy and paste" is all they have left in their arsenal.

 

[studier]

we have free will to (1) Die or (2) Bend to God’s will.

I probably wouldn't use "bend" but at the end of all of this, I think this is the reality of the whole issue.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The verses you employ concerning judgment are descriptions of 2 different types of people. One group does good and the other does not. No where in those verses does it state how they came to such estates.
No one in the first group is unsaved. They are walking in the works prepared for them. No one in the second group is saved. They are merely walking according to the flesh and live to themselves.

While God foreknows all things, when it comes to God choosing a people to Himself, He doesn't choose based on WHAT He knows, but WHOM He foreknew...Romans 8:29. The emphasis is not on a body of knowledge, but a body of people; and not what He knew about each, but of a relationship He has with them even before time as we understand it began. So as I understand, God isn't responding the activity of men, but is acting on choices He has already made.

A good example is the nation Israel. God tells us why He chose them. He chose them because of His love for them...His choice, and because He made a promise to Abraham...His choice.

Man it’s really hard to try to get to a point with you brother bravo though iv not seen better gymnastics in the Olympics

 

[Cameron143]

“Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭3:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The terminology of marriage to god comes from entering a covenant with him . It’s like a marriage vow to be faithful to one another. Based on the words spoken at the marriage . They were his chosen bRide.

abut they continually commuted adultery worshipping false gods one generation would obey and then they would fall back into idolatry which was the first commandment of thou shalt nots in the law he would raise them back up , they would obey for a short time and fall back to idolatry ect like a wife who keeps cheating on her hard working honorable husband who’s upholding his vow to her to be faithful but eventually …..because of her actions the marriage vow is broken by her not him but by her . Even though annercufo hisband forgives eventually he’ll be saying “ I was a husband to her but my covenant she broke “

When I asked you about foreknowledge I was thinking of this after he dwelt with them for a time just as Moses was about to die he exhibits his foreknowledge of the people and tboer deeds ahead knowing thier hearts and judgements according to it are pronounced beforhand according to what he knows they will do

This is what I was saying

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. “
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:16-18,KJV‬‬

He knew thier works beforehand and his judgements are according to those works he knew they would do . By his Foreknowledge he works all things to bring to pass his plan seen in revelation 21

To what do you attribute God's foreknowledge?