Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Pilgrimshope]

exactly ... one has even gone so far as to say "those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners" ... and when I called that lying liar on the carpet, another stepped up to the plate to agree with the lie ... not speaking of Cameron143, Magenta, BillyBob, Rufus or a few others who hold to TULIP, but come on! there is no way a person who does not believe the gospel ... who continues as an ungodly sinner the whole of his or her life ... that is a clear indication that they will be cast into the lake of fire.

honestly, some of the things these "elect" types come up with ... yikes!!!
.

Yes doctrine is really important

 

[Kroogz]

Problem is.... too many insist upon remaining babies.
They may even blame Satan for when it is God trying to move them along.

Yes.

 

[cv5]

My Pastor who taught us from the Greek with detail, explained that passage in a way that made me sit up straight and take note.

Titus 2:11-12?
Grace teaches?
What?
How?

When reading that passage I used to think that the grace of God would use a pastor to teach us a list of things we must not do.

Then, one day, my pastor explained.

The word translated "teaching" .... has nothing to do with a classroom setting where a teacher is to be teaching his students information on what not to do. "
Like ... Don't get drunk! Don't fornicate, etc."

It is a different word for teaching.

The word translated 'teaches' speaks of a process of teaching that will allow us to do exactly what displeases God.
And, in doing so?
We will get hurt badly.

When that happens?

Then!

That is how learn to say, "NO!"

That is how the grace of God teaches us to say "NO!" to ungodliness.

If that pastor happens to be R. B. Thieme Jr., then we can have a high level of confidence that he is correct.

His Greek and Hebrew is superlative.

 

[cv5]

Yes doctrine is really important

I would go so far as to say extraordinarily important. Ask Zipporah.

 

[Kroogz]

If that pastor happens to be R. B. Thieme Jr., then we can have a high level of confidence that he is correct.

His Greek and Hebrew is superlative.

Yes, yes and YES!

 

[Genez]

If that pastor happens to be R. B. Thieme Jr., then we can have a high level of confidence that he is correct.

His Greek and Hebrew is superlative.

It took me a couple years of verifying before I was able to settle down into trusting.

I kept asking why no one else would teach such things.

 

[Kroogz]

Can you completely trust your own judgment?

Nope. That is why we have the Lord Jesus Christ and His Drawing of all men. The Holy Spirit convicting/convincing all men. And the Father sending His Son to all men.

None will have an excuse.......God gave all of us .......the privilege and opportunity to be saved.

 

[Cameron143]

For what reason would you want that?

I'm always interested in why people believe as they do.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And again, the particulars of your interactions with @Magenta don't interest me either.

I would believe you when you say my "interactions with @Magenta don't interest [you]" if you had not inserted yourself into the discussion ...

If you feel offended by what she has written, tell her or cover what you consider her sins to be.

I pointed out to @Magenta that she is in error in including John 3:27 in the panel she submitted ... that rather than accuse me of nefarious activity concerning Scripture ... she should heed the instruction in James 1:19 ... the only ones who have replied are you and BillyBob ...

While I don't condone some of the ways people express themselves on the forums, it's allowed. We can't control other's actions, but we can control our responses. And while others may be offensive, we are not obligated to take offense. Sometimes we actually have opportunity to put into action what we say we believe. Perhaps this is one of those times for you.

again, the only ones who have replied to my post to @Magenta are you and BillyBob ... so far, nothing from @Magenta ... and why should she if/when you and BillyBob stand in for her so she can blithely go on her way without learning that ripping verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them is mishandling the Word of God? you are not doing Magenta any favors, Cameron143.

I tell you one thing ...

Acts 18:24-26 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Apollos, an eloquent man, mighty in the Scriptures, gladly received the instruction from Aquila and Priscilla ... we could use more folks like Apollos in our day and time ... just sayin'
.

 

[Cameron143]

I would believe you when you say my "interactions with @Magenta don't interest [you]" if you had not inserted yourself into the discussion ...





I pointed out to @Magenta that she is in error in including John 3:27 in the panel she submitted ... that rather than accuse me of nefarious activity concerning Scripture ... she should heed the instruction in James 1:19 ... the only ones who have replied are you and BillyBob ...





again, the only ones who have replied to my post to @Magenta are you and BillyBob ... so far, nothing from @Magenta ... and why should she if/when you and BillyBob stand in for her so she can blithely go on her way without learning that ripping verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them is mishandling the Word of God? you are not doing Magenta any favors, Cameron143.

I tell you one thing ...

Acts 18:24-26 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Apollos, an eloquent man, mighty in the Scriptures, gladly received the instruction from Aquila and Priscilla ... we could use more folks like Apollos in our day and time ... just sayin'
.

I didn't insert myself into your conversation. I noticed a passage of scripture you quoted and asked a question concerning one of the verses.

 

[cv5]

Nope. That is why we have the Lord Jesus Christ and His Drawing of all men. The Holy Spirit convicting/convincing all men. And the Father sending His Son to all men.

None will have an excuse.......God gave all of us .......the privilege and opportunity to be saved.

Dot only that we actually have the ***legal right*** to be saved. And we have the best Lawyer in the universe working pro bono on our behalf.

Please someone inform the Calvinists of these facts immediately.

 

[Jordon]

Great question. And, yes, FWers prefer to trust in their own judgment even though all men are utterly deceitful. Trusting implicitly in God's holy, perfect will doesn't work for FWers! FWers insist that THEY must reach decisions on their own, otherwise they're mere "robots".

For some people yes I would agree with that.

Great question. And, yes, FWers prefer to trust in their own judgment even though all men are utterly deceitful. Trusting implicitly in God's holy, perfect will doesn't work for FWers! FWers insist that THEY must reach decisions on their own, otherwise they're mere "robots".

I believe a lot of people work not because they want to but because they have to, and they all long for the day of a happy retirement, but that won't come untill they've worked long and hard,

Well you don't have to believe in God but if you don't well you won't be getting that happy retirement.

Some wills are above all and and really certain wills should take priority over your own, it's really something a person should accept.

However it's more than just these reason people debate this topic, many reason I see, one being people are questioning God's relationship with man.

I guess shone people just can't understand why man has free will when there prone to mistakes.

And I see that some people would rather be controlled for fear of getting things wrong and question God for these very reasons.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I didn't insert myself into your conversation. I noticed a passage of scripture you quoted and asked a question concerning one of the verses.

no question asked of me ...

Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth. That deserved underlining.

oh, I see ... you asked yourself the question ...

Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth. That deserved underlining.

Any of the word people want to explain this to me?

not quite the same as asking me a question ...
.

 

[sawdust]

So, God's will is that a professing believer like yourself can glibly say that you were saved by His grace, clearly giving Him the credit (I'm assuming). Yet, how is it that you also don't credit God for condemning all the unbelievers since the vast majority of the world doesn't believe in Christ, yet they had the exact same access to his grace as believers did?

Because as you rightly pointed out it is not God's will to save everyone. It is His desire to save all but it is His will that each should choose to love Him from our own free will. This is what His grace does in that it controls the desires of the flesh when the truth is presented so one can freely choose for themself without compulsion or manipulation just as Adam and Christ chose to accept/reject of their own will. Adam condemned us, not God. God set us free by removing the barrier that prevented us being able to come and worship with the Cross. He then supplies the grace needed for us to see the truth and respond freely from our own soul.

When scripture speaks of "favor", which it does nearly 100 times in the OT, it means "gracious kindness". So...we have your version of God being kind, merciful and compassion to believers ostensibly by virtue of his grace (and grace is a virtue!), yet at the same time his grace fell dismally flat with all unbelievers because his gracious kindness didn't have it's intended positive effect.

But it did have the positive effect God willed by freeing the person who is presented with the Gospel. The problem is you think it is meant to save the person in order for them to believe so the Gospel can save them. You're theology is illogical. How many times do you want God to save you from death?

Also, you will not be able to give so much as one example of God's grace ever falling short of its intended purpose either with any believer or with any physical miracle any prophet or Jesus performed. Whatever you think of God's grace, you certainly don't view it as His miraculous power, correct? How come God's grace is 100% effectual in physical healings, yet maybe only as high as 10% when it comes to healing spiritual maladies?

I dare say your misunderstanding of what I think would lead you to think I think God's grace is not a miraculous power but I know it is. It raises men from death. You simply want it to do what you want it to do and not what God want's His grace to do.

Bottom line: At the end of the day, the real difference between unbelievers and believers lays between the two groups. It's not God's grace that made the difference, since unbelievers remained stubborn and stiff-necked, for God's grace was never intended to actually heal man's spiritual condition; therefore, believers can only logically boast in the efficacy of their freewill decision since they received the exact same kind of grace as their unbelieving counterparts -- unless of course God gave unbelievers poisoned grace.

His grace to raise a person to life comes after the Gospel is accepted, that is the difference between you and me. You think a man has to be saved from death and transformed before he can believe and be saved. I think a man can be made free enough to accept or reject the Gospel of his own volition. God does the rest and He always initiates.

As for me, I will, like Paul, continue to boast in the Cross of Christ (Gal 6:14). In fact, it was the only thing the apostle ever boasted in! This is perfectly understandable since Good Friday always precedes Easter Sunday -- if you get my drift.

You do that. Hopefully the Lord will be gracious to you so you can fully comprehend what the Cross did and didn't achieve.

 

[sawdust]

For what reason would you want that?

I wouldn't bother seeing as he has confessed to not reading explanations if they are lengthy (which who knows how long that is). As for me, now I know he doesn't read posts fully, I won't be bothering to wrack my brains trying to explain anything to him anymore.

 

[sawdust]

That is why God ends up with us finding ourselves having to work out our salvation in fear and trembling!

Its all about love and niceness in the baby stage.

Then God stops pampering us when it comes time to train us for taking up the sword, shield, and bazooka.

I'm hoping to upgrade to rocket launcher one day.

 

[Cameron143]

no question asked of me ...





oh, I see ... you asked yourself the question ...




not quite the same as asking me a question ...
.

The question was for anyone. Still no one has explained their understanding of the verse.

 

[Cameron143]

no question asked of me ...





oh, I see ... you asked yourself the question ...




not quite the same as asking me a question ...
.

Also, keep reading. In one of my responses I asked your understanding of the verse.

 

[Cameron143]

I wouldn't bother seeing as he has confessed to not reading explanations if they are lengthy (which who knows how long that is). As for me, now I know he doesn't read posts fully, I won't be bothering to wrack my brains trying to explain anything to him anymore.

I didn't say I don't read posts that are addressed to me. I wasn't a part of the other discussion. As I was scrolling through I noticed the passage.

 

[HeIsHere]

I wouldn't bother seeing as he has confessed to not reading explanations if they are lengthy (which who knows how long that is). As for me, now I know he doesn't read posts fully, I won't be bothering to wrack my brains trying to explain anything to him anymore.

I totally and completely agree. On occasion I would put in the effort for the sake of the vulnerable, but with that there is only so much one can do.

I saw "the game" a long time ago, over and over again.

Someone once told me, also a long while ago, there are recruiters on CC, I thought it was out there at the time, but having read a bit on "stealth Calvinism" I am more inclined to believe it may be true.