Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

Actually, it doesn't. You're assuming that the Bereans were not chosen by God to become his people. You also assume that God was not effectually working in their hearts when they heard Paul's gospel.

You should preach on the Jerry Springer show.

 

[Genez]

God "knows who will believe" based upon his divine prerogative, not prescience. Your lame theory actually contradicts His attribute of omniscience, since you reduce an all-knowing, all-wise God to the level of finite creatures who must learn, acquire and obtain knowledge. You make his finite creatures his counselors who wind up teaching Him! I suppose the angels teach God a thing or two, also, heh?

BTW, did any mere mortal ever teach Christ anything when He walked this earth!?

You can huff and puff...​

​

But, you will never blow God's house down.​

.......

 

[Rufus]

HeIsHere said:


I know you need to add to the account.
Hmm, who is really doing the assuming

Regeneration is instantaneous by necessity, no one can be partially reborn.

But a fetus is very much alive in the womb long before birth. Life does not begin at birth but at the inception of life in the womb. Regeneration, therefore, is a process just the way physical birth is a 9-month process. Without Regeneration preceding the new birth, no one would ever be born from above, since sanctification (another process) is the primary cause to believing the truth.

 

[Rufus]

You can huff and puff...​

​

But, you will never blow God's house down.​

...... .

Yes...and YOU can denigrate the Almighty by bringing him down to the level of finite, fallible, sinful creatures by claiming that God must also acquire knowledge from such creatures.

 

[cv5]

Except the unregenerated person hears the gospel as foolishness... and it is hid to them though you deny that also. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. You reject that and a plethora other verses that make plain who is open to receiving the spiritual things of God and why. It is not the man whose heart is incurably wicked. No good fruit can come from that. Jesus said so. But you don't like many of the things Jesus said either, like not everyone hears. You claim everyone does. You promote your vain man-exalting falsehoods in favour of what the Bible actually says.

Wow. That is some kind of vitriolic rant you have got going there dear.

"unregenerated person"......."foolishness"........."hid to them"........."blinded the minds of unbelievers "........."heart is incurably wicked ".........."No good fruit"

Whew. Brutal. Just does not seem normal for a Christian to constantly be obsessed like this IMO.

 

[HeIsHere]

But a fetus is very much alive in the womb long before birth. Life does not begin at birth but at the inception of life in the womb. Regeneration, therefore, is a process just the way physical birth is a 9-month process. Without Regeneration preceding the new birth, no one would ever be born from above, since sanctification (another process) is the primary cause to believing the truth.

I will go with the analogy Jesus used, as "physical birth" likened to being "born from above" as a singular event in time.

 

[Rufus]

Agree that the heart becomes more and more hardened as the truth is suppressed. This truth is clearly laid out in Romans 1:18-32.

If and when the gospel of Christ is presented to the natural man, he or she can either believe the gospel and receive the blessing ... or he or she can suppress the truth in unrighteousness and receive the consequence of having suppressed.


Agree that God has provided all that in necessary that "in spite of our "natural" condition, we can hear and see Him" ... but according to some who have posted in this thread, God just couldn't figure out a way to get through to the natural man ... what God has to do is cause the natural man to be born again in order that he or she can believe the gospel by which he or she is born again ... how many times must a person be born again before he or she is really, really, really, truly, scout's honor born again ???

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
.

Blind people can see (understand) NOTHING. This is why fallen human beings are called Darkness. All mankind comes into this world as spiritually blind as the physically blind man from birth. But your guilt remains because you say, "*I* CAN see!!!" *I* understand spiritual truth. *I* am not helpless. *I* don't need any feakin' rescuing. Who needs to rescued from a little darkness? *I* am good to go because God's grace has given me the freedom to believe or not believe.

 

[HeIsHere]

Wow. That is some kind of vitriolic rant you have got going there dear.

"unregenerated person"......."foolishness"........."hid to them"........."blinded the minds of unbelievers "........."heart is incurably wicked ".........."No good fruit"

Whew. Brutal. Just does not seem normal for a Christian to constantly be obsessed like this IMO.

Maybe this explains it.

...because they are discouraged from the false doctrine that there is a good chance that the hope of the Gospel isn't really for them.

 

[Rufus]

Wow. That is some kind of vitriolic rant you have got going there dear.

"unregenerated person"......."foolishness"........."hid to them"........."blinded the minds of unbelievers "........."heart is incurably wicked ".........."No good fruit"

Whew. Brutal. Just does not seem normal for a Christian to constantly be obsessed like this IMO.

Magenta's "vitrolic rant" is entirely biblical. Thanks for the honesty, though, in admitting what you really think of God's truth, i.e. that it's "some kind of vitriolic rant".

 

[Magenta]

Colossians 2 v 8, Romans 16 v 18, Romans 10 v 2, Proverbs 19 v 2a ~ See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For I testify about them that they are zealous for God, but not on the basis of knowledge. Zeal is no good without knowledge.

 

[Rufus]

Maybe I misunderstand, but are you saying we have no choice in accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior?

Not without God's effectual grace we don't!

 

[studier]

Maybe this will help to see where I am coming from?

God is omniscient.
He elects those whom He knows will believe.
All elected will at some turn in their life find themselves believing.

Now, who does he predestinate?

In one dispensation, he predestined all those Jews who believed in the OT to be born and living during the OT years.

In our dispensation?
In Christ, before the foundations of the world, He chose all souls who would become the Bride of Christ in this dispensation of the church age, when they will believe!

Predestination (I believe) was God determining when we should live.
As to determine what is to become of believer as a part of his salvation package!

Are all the Bride of Christ who believe? NO!
We have been predetermined by God to be born during the Church age.
In doing so?
We are predestined to be the Bride of Christ?

For those whom God predetermined and predestined to be born during the Millennium?
Will they also be the Bride of Christ when they believe? NO!

Predestination has nothing to do with God making someone to believe.
But, because He knows who will believe when given the truth?
He has predetermined when they shall live on earth, as to predestine what their destiny with eternity will land them.

Have all been chosen in Christ? NO!
Does that mean Moses and David were not saved? NO!

​

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world ​

to be holy and blameless in his sight. " Eph 1:4​

Chosen beforehand, just as God chose Eve to be in Adam before the woman was to be revealed as the Bride of Adam!

Just as Eve was in Adam's body before she was revealed as bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh?

And? We now are seated in heavenly places, where?

IN THE GLORIOUS BONE AND FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST -GLORIFIED!

We will be to the Lord as Eve was to Adam!

We have been predestined to be so.
God predetermined it by determining when we should be born, as to what dispensation in which we would find ourselves believing!

God predetermined when this understanding shall be made known and clarified for all who love His Word.

so be it......

A lot there to unpack and several points of discussions to be had.

The bottom line seems to be that God does save or not save based upon man's will.

The way that I reconcile this in regard to Rom9:16 is that Rom9:16 in context is not speaking about election to salvation, but mainly of Jacob's election to be in the lineage of Abraham & Isaac and to become Israel.

So, your statement was not in conflict with Rom9:16 because they are not talking about the same thing, though it seems like they may have been doing so.

I'll leave it here unless you want to clarify or correct something.

 

[Magenta]

Magenta's "vitrolic rant" is entirely biblical. Thanks for the honesty, though, in admitting
what you really think of God's truth, i.e. that it's "some kind of vitriolic rant".

Hey, Rufus, thanks! I see what people call rants. Yeah, matter of fact straight forward expositing gets called all kinds
of things by those who hate what the Scripture verses say because they show their false doctrine for what it is.

 

[studier]

There is so much being lost in the translations today.

It's hard to convince many of this but some of us learned the truth about it.

 

[cv5]

My pastor is the only one I ever heard break it down that way.
I was overjoyed to hear it taught that way.
He also said that the Greek indicated that the Bereans were the most "open-minded."

Too much cynicism creeps in because too believers many assume the meaning
when reading a translation while not knowing what the Greek was telling us all along.

There is so much being lost in the translations today.

For what it's worth...

Here is the pastor whom God so gifted to translate for us.
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

His lessons have been recorded and there is no money asked for!

Both Hal Lindsay and Chuck Swindoll had their foundational years formed in his congregation.

grace and peace!

I have never heard Psalm 103 properly exegeting in my life until I heard R. B. Thieme.
Truly, this man is packing the gear. The subtleties and correct inflections of the ancient Hebrew DOES NOT escape him that's for sure.

rbthieme.org/mp3/631_0026.mp3

 

[Magenta]

The gospel is foolishness to the natural man, since he can neither accept nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. It is impossible for his incurably wicked heart to grow the seed of God’s Word into the good fruit of faith while he is captive to the will of the devil. Along with the rest of the world who does not know God, he is blinded to the truth and under the power and influence of Satan, rendered incapable of submitting to or obeying God, with Whom he is inherently hostile toward in his mind, for he craves what is contrary to the Spirit. He suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, refusing to come into the light because he is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, defined as darkness itself, and his deeds are evil.

 

[studier]

Whew. Brutal. Just does not seem normal for a Christian to constantly be obsessed like this IMO.

It is a very odd and extreme focus. Something about the personalities involved?

 

[Rufus]

John 6:47 KJV — Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

This is what really the pattern and so simple just as Paul did. Paul says follow me as I follow Christ. In essense, one is to
believe on Christ to have everlating life. Faith before regeneration and not the otherway around as Calvies is saying of regeneration in order to have faith

The text above does not say what you just read into it. All the passage is saying is that anyone who presently believes (Present Active Participle) can be assured they currently have everlasting life. You should pay better attention to verb tenses. And the verb "has" is in the Present Active Indicative mood, making it a simple statement of fact.

 

[Rufus]

And the evil you continue to do is God's fault because He is not causing you to obey well enough?

It could only be God's fault is he is morally obligated to dispense with HIS GRACE and he fails to do so.

 

[Magenta]

The text above does not say what you just read into it. All the passage is saying is that anyone who presently believes (Present Active Participle) can be assured they currently have everlasting life. You should pay better attention to verb tenses. And the verb "has" is in the Present Active Indicative mood, making it a simple statement of fact.

Yes, and he keeps ignoring that the world cannot receive the spirit of truth, and nobody can believe without that, because without it the gospel is hid and heard as foolishness... the unregenerated man is opposed to the spiritual things of God toward Whom he is hostile.

The free willing folks don't believe any of that, though. They need to minimize what the Bible says of man.
He is not such a bad guy after all even though Jesus said none are good, and a bad tree cannot bring forth
good fruit. Certainly that incurably wicked heart cannot bring forth good fruit. It needs to be changed first.