Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Here are other passages about regeneration through the agency of faith. Rejecting by not believing is no life. That's not too complicated to understand.

. . . that BELIEVING YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE through his name. -- John 20:31

. . . he that BELIEVETH NOT the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE . . . -- John 3:36

. . . For ye are all the CHILDREN of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. -- Gal. 3:26

Yes. And who receives Christ? Not any who still belong to the world. The unregenerated/natural man cannot receive or comprehend the spiritiual things of God. He is actually opposed to them. Scripture says so. Do you understand what it is to be called out of the world?

 

[Jackson129]

Its weird to be told you dont understand the scripture when they don't know what "the world" means.

When you say only the chosen can understand the scripture then tell us we dont understand scripture they are telling us we are not saved. Whether they know they are doing it or not.

My only question is do they even know that's how they are comming across or are they oblivious to that fact.

 

[studier]

When God told them to stop desiring for another to be saved.
They had been doing good works on another's behalf.

Also, men themselves desired to be saved, and did not know how to be.

So? Jews came under the Pharisees spell of doing good works to be saved!

Then, the Cross came.
God made it simple.

In effect.
God was telling mankind.

Do not bring your good works to me and beg for mercy when you do. (as so many were doing)

This is what they were told to do!


He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”


Acts 16:30-31

Sorry, but I'm not understanding your response as to how it answers what I pointed out in your post that seems like a contradiction.

You seemed to first go with Rom9:16 that election is of God and not of men - so election is not of men's will but of God [God's will] (Rom9:16) - but then said the following which does seem to make God's election based upon man's will:

• [God won't save that person] "if God knows they want (desire/will??) no part of Him"

As I said before, maybe I was misunderstanding you. Now I continue to misunderstand in your response. Talking past one another?

Something for all of us to consider in these election discussions:

NKJ Rom9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

• In Rom9 Paul is mainly establishing that not all of Israel is Israel.
• In context 9:16 is saying that God's election of Jacob had nothing to do with men. God made the unilateral choice of Jacob after promised Isaac after Abraham.
• So, God's election of Jacob was "not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy"
• The first issue with all of this discussion about election is that this verse is talking about Jacob and not specifically about electing believers.
• To get to some semblance of understanding election in this part of Romans as may apply to believers we have to go through at least Rom9-10 and continue the track of the Remnant - Not all Israel is Israel - and Faith.

 

[Genez]

Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received G1209 (dechomai) the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

When they heard Paul's teaching, the Bereans loved what he taught.

But, Paul's words to them sounded almost too good to be true.

That is why they searched the Scriptures!

They searched because they wanted to prove what they heard from Paul was in fact truth!

 

[HeIsHere]

When they heard Paul's teaching, the Bereans loved what he taught.

But, Paul's words to them sounded almost too good to be true.

That is why they searched the Scriptures!

They searched because they wanted to prove what they heard from Paul was in fact truth!

I absolutely love this!!

If the Gospel is correctly presented as the Good News that it is, it comes across as to good to be true!

And notice he described them as being of being more fair minded.

Completely obliterates Total Inability as well!

 

[Rufus]

No we don't, that's just the misguided lie you tell yourself to continue justifying your need to feel in control.

Really? I'm the one lying? Since when does any FWer believe in the efficacy of God's grace? Since when does any FWer believe that they believed by their "freewill" choice?

 

[Magenta]

I absolutely love this!!

If the Gospel is correctly presented as the Good News that it is, it comes across as to good to be true!

And notice he described them as being of being more fair minded.

Completely obliterates Total Inability as well!

Except the unregenerated person hears the gospel as foolishness... and it is hid to them though you deny that also. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. You reject that and a plethora other verses that make plain who is open to receiving the spiritual things of God and why. It is not the man whose heart is incurably wicked. No good fruit can come from that. Jesus said so. But you don't like many of the things Jesus said either, like not everyone hears. You claim everyone does. You promote your vain man-exalting falsehoods in favour of what the Bible actually says.

 

[Genez]

Sorry, but I'm not understanding your response as to how it answers what I pointed out in your post that seems like a contradiction.

You seemed to first go with Rom9:16 that election is of God and not of men - so election is not of men's will but of God [God's will] (Rom9:16) - but then said the following which does seem to make God's election based upon man's will:

• [God won't save that person] "if God knows they want (desire/will??) no part of Him"

As I said before, maybe I was misunderstanding you. Now I continue to misunderstand in your response. Talking past one another?

Something for all of us to consider in these election discussions:

NKJ Rom9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

• In Rom9 Paul is mainly establishing that not all of Israel is Israel.
• In context 9:16 is saying that God's election of Jacob had nothing to do with men. God made the unilateral choice of Jacob after promised Isaac after Abraham.
• So, God's election of Jacob was "not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy"
• The first issue with all of this discussion about election is that this verse is talking about Jacob and not specifically about electing believers.
• To get to some semblance of understanding election in this part of Romans as may apply to believers we have to go through at least Rom9-10 and continue the track of the Remnant - Not all Israel is Israel - and Faith.

Maybe this will help to see where I am coming from?

God is omniscient.
He elects those whom He knows will believe.
All elected will at some turn in their life find themselves believing.

Now, who does he predestinate?

In one dispensation, he predestined all those Jews who believed in the OT to be born and living during the OT years.

In our dispensation?
In Christ, before the foundations of the world, He chose all souls who would become the Bride of Christ in this dispensation of the church age, when they will believe!

Predestination (I believe) was God determining when we should live.
As to determine what is to become of believer as a part of his salvation package!

Are all the Bride of Christ who believe? NO!
We have been predetermined by God to be born during the Church age.
In doing so?
We are predestined to be the Bride of Christ?

For those whom God predetermined and predestined to be born during the Millennium?
Will they also be the Bride of Christ when they believe? NO!

Predestination has nothing to do with God making someone to believe.
But, because He knows who will believe when given the truth?
He has predetermined when they shall live on earth, as to predestine what their destiny with eternity will land them.

Have all been chosen in Christ? NO!
Does that mean Moses and David were not saved? NO!

​

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world ​

to be holy and blameless in his sight. " Eph 1:4​

Chosen beforehand, just as God chose Eve to be in Adam before the woman was to be revealed as the Bride of Adam!

Just as Eve was in Adam's body before she was revealed as bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh?

And? We now are seated in heavenly places, where?

IN THE GLORIOUS BONE AND FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST -GLORIFIED!

We will be to the Lord as Eve was to Adam!

We have been predestined to be so.
God predetermined it by determining when we should be born, as to what dispensation in which we would find ourselves believing!

God predetermined when this understanding shall be made known and clarified for all who love His Word.

so be it......

 

[Rufus]

I absolutely love this!!

If the Gospel is correctly presented as the Good News that it is, it comes across as to good to be true!

And notice he described them as being of being more fair minded.

Completely obliterates Total Inability as well!

Actually, it doesn't. You're assuming that the Bereans were not chosen by God to become his people. You also assume that God was not effectually working in their hearts when they heard Paul's gospel.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Right. Because they received G1209 the delivery that God sent.
Just as Nineveh RECEIVED Jonah whom God sent.
Just as Rahab RECEIVED the 2 witnesses whom God sent.
Others did NOT receive the delivery, did not heed the call, did not respond positively with a good conscience.

right ... before Paul and Silas went to Berea, they were in Thessalonica (Acts 17:1) where they taught the gospel of Christ (Acts 17:3) ... some believed (Acts 17:4) ... and some did not believe ... look at what those who did not believe did:

Acts 17:5-10 But the Jews which believed not, moved with envy, took unto them certain lewd fellows of the baser sort, and gathered a company, and set all the city on an uproar, and assaulted the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people. And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also; Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus. And they troubled the people and the rulers of the city, when they heard these things. And when they had taken security of Jason, and of the other, they let them go. And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.


Then, when the Bereans willingly accepted the gospel taught by Paul and Silas

Acts 17:13-15 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people. And then immediately the brethren sent away Paul to go as it were to the sea: but Silas and Timotheus abode there still. And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed.


In Thessalonica, those who did not believe enjoined "lewd fellows of the baser sort", caused an uproar, jailed believers ... heard Paul and Silas were in Berea teaching the gospel ... went to Berea and "stirred up the people" ... kind of like what we see here in this thread with some of the anger and vitriol from some ...

God forbid some should take a hint from the Bereans, pick up their Bibles and "search the Scriptures daily whether those things be so". If "those things be so", it would be a benefit to let go of errant dogma and willingly receive (dechomai) ... or better yet receive by actively taking hold of (lambanō) the truth of God's Word ... God will hold us up as we leave behind error and grab hold of His marvelous truth.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes, and Paul also believed in God and the OT before the NT Gospel was revealed to him.

yes ... as touching the law, Paul was a pharisee (Phil 3:5).
.

 

[HeIsHere]

Actually, it doesn't. You're assuming that the Bereans were not chosen by God to become his people. You also assume that God was not effectually working in their hearts when they heard Paul's gospel.

I know you need to add to the account.
Hmm, who is really doing the assuming

Regeneration is instantaneous by necessity, no one can be partially reborn.

 

[HeIsHere]

Sorry, but I'm not understanding your response as to how it answers what I pointed out in your post that seems like a contradiction.

You seemed to first go with Rom9:16 that election is of God and not of men - so election is not of men's will but of God [God's will] (Rom9:16) - but then said the following which does seem to make God's election based upon man's will:

• [God won't save that person] "if God knows they want (desire/will??) no part of Him"

As I said before, maybe I was misunderstanding you. Now I continue to misunderstand in your response. Talking past one another?

Something for all of us to consider in these election discussions:

NKJ Rom9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

• In Rom9 Paul is mainly establishing that not all of Israel is Israel.
• In context 9:16 is saying that God's election of Jacob had nothing to do with men. God made the unilateral choice of Jacob after promised Isaac after Abraham.
• So, God's election of Jacob was "not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy"
• The first issue with all of this discussion about election is that this verse is talking about Jacob and not specifically about electing believers.
• To get to some semblance of understanding election in this part of Romans as may apply to believers we have to go through at least Rom9-10 and continue the track of the Remnant - Not all Israel is Israel - and Faith.

Yes sadly there is a lot of straddling the lanes which is really not necessary if one understands "elect" correctly.

 

[Magenta]

Actually, it doesn't. You're assuming that the Bereans were not chosen by God to become his people.
You also assume that God was not effectually working in their hearts when they heard Paul's gospel.

Well, we know that the gospel is foolishness to the unregenerated natural man. Obviously that does not apply to the Bereans.

They were already receiving and understanding the spiritual things of God before Paul came along.

 

[Genez]

Fiddling requires playing by ear. Sorry, I can’t do that, so give me some sheet music for second violin.

The Holy Spirit can make us to be spontaneous and creative.

History shows us that jazz was born in church people!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

My only question is do they even know that's how they are comming across

yes.

or are they oblivious to that fact.

no ... it actually feeds fleshly lusts to speak ill of fellow believers ... these things ought not so to be
.

 

[Genez]

Well, we know that the gospel is foolishness to the unregenerated natural man.

Just as false doctrine is foolishness to the maturing in Christ.

 

[Magenta]

I know you need to add to the account.
Hmm, who is really doing the assuming

Regeneration is instantaneous by necessity, no one can be partially reborn.

You subtract from the account by refusing to include what is said of the unregenerated person. The gospel message
was not foolishness to them nor was it hid and they were able to comprehend it. But you do this a lot and you have
to in order to hold to your false doctrine. Do you think a person's heart is circumcised the moment they are reborn?

 

[Genez]

I absolutely love this!!

My pastor is the only one I ever heard break it down that way.
I was overjoyed to hear it taught that way.
He also said that the Greek indicated that the Bereans were the most "open-minded."

Too much cynicism creeps in because too believers many assume the meaning
when reading a translation while not knowing what the Greek was telling us all along.

There is so much being lost in the translations today.

For what it's worth...

Here is the pastor whom God so gifted to translate for us.
https://www.rbthieme.org/index.html#tabs-3

His lessons have been recorded and there is no money asked for!

Both Hal Lindsay and Chuck Swindoll had their foundational years formed in his congregation.

grace and peace!

 

[Rufus]

Maybe this will help to see where I am coming from?

God is omniscient.
He elects those whom He knows will believe.
All elected will at some turn in their life find themselves believing.

Now, who does he predestinate?

In one dispensation, he predestined all those Jews who believed in the OT to be born and living during the OT years.

In our dispensation?
In Christ, before the foundations of the world, He chose all souls who would become the Bride of Christ in this dispensation of the church age, when they will believe!

Predestination (I believe) is God determining when we should live, as to determine what is to become of believing one as a part of his salvation package.

Are all the Bride of Christ who believe? NO!
We have been predetermined by God to be born during the Church age.
In doing so?
We are predestined to be the Bride of Christ?

For those whom God predetermined and predestined to be born during the Millennium?
Will they also be the Bride of Christ when they believe? NO!

Predestination has nothing to do with God making someone to believe.
But, because He knows who will believe when given the truth?
He has predetermined when they shall live on earth, as to predestine what their destiny with eternity will land them.

Have all been chosen in Christ? NO!
Does that mean Moses and David were not saved? NO!

​

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world ​

to be holy and blameless in his sight. " Eph 1:4​

Chosen beforehand, just as God chose Eve to be in Adam before the woman was to be revealed as the Bride of Adam!

Just as Eve was in Adam's body before she was revealed as bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh?

And? We now are seated in heavenly places, where?

IN THE GLORIOUS BONE AND FLESH OF JESUS CHRIST -GLORIFIED!

We will be to the Lord as Eve was to Adam!

We have been predestined to be so.
God predetermined it by determining when we should be born, as to what dispensation in which we would find ourselves believing!

God predetermined when this understanding shall be made known and clarified for all who love His Word.

so be it......

God "knows who will believe" based upon his divine prerogative, not prescience. Your lame theory actually contradicts His attribute of omniscience, since you reduce an all-knowing, all-wise God to the level of finite creatures who must learn, acquire and obtain knowledge. You make his finite creatures his counselors who wind up teaching Him! I suppose the angels teach God a thing or two, also, heh?

BTW, did any mere mortal ever teach Christ anything when He walked this earth!?