Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[lrs68]

After reading 22 Tanakh Books [39 English Old Testament Books] and 27 New Testament Books I have yet to find ONE EXAMPLE of God saying I saved you and you had no choice about it.

So how is there a doctrine that makes this claim?

 

[BillyBob]

After reading 22 Tanakh Books [39 English Old Testament Books] and 27 New Testament Books I have yet to find ONE EXAMPLE of God saying I saved you and you had no choice about it.

So how is there a doctrine that makes this claim?

Eph 2:1-9 Do you not have ears?

 

[Magenta]

I agree! If salvation is a gift by grace thru faith, then it must be received as a gift rather than earned.

Amen. God is good!

Praise the Lord for He is good His love endures forever

 

[Magenta]

Eph 2:1-9 Do you not have ears?

Some do not have ears to hear. Then we are told this only applies to Jews. We are told everyone hears and the
gospel is not hid although those are just more of the FW claims that contradict what Scripture actually says.
Apparently the whole world being blinded to the truth by the god of this world means nothing, either.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

Ephesians 2 v 4-7 ~ Because of His great love for us, God, Who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Magenta]

Another false free will claim is that spiritual revelation is not necessary.

1 Corinthians 12 verse 2-3 & from Romans 8 verse 9 ~ You know that when you were pagans, you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. You are controlled by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you. The Spirit of truth proceeds from the Father to testify about Jesus. From John 15 verse 26

 

[Magenta]

Another false free will claim that has surfaced among some of the FW proponents is that not every sinner
is a slave to sin. The claim being made is that only atheists choose to sin and become slaves to sin. This is
so ridiculous. People in need of God's grace are unqualified in this FWT since they do not require being set free.
I was an unbeliever for almost fifty years and not one second of that time was spent as an atheist.

 

[Rosemaryx]

God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses.

Amen...
Just this line even says it all...
John 6:39
Now this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

 

[BillyBob]

Amen...
Just this line even says it all...
John 6:39
Now this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

A great post from my upside-down 1961 person!

 

[Jackson129]

So how do we fit man's responsibility and God's will together? I sit somewhere in the middle. Not as in undecided who's doctrine to follow. But as ok some of this side has logical scripture based ideas and some of that side does. So instead of prescribing to one side or the other I take from both sides the logical scripture based arguments. Would that not allow me or anyone else to have a fuller view of scripture.

Now the originators ofevery single Protestant denomination formed a doctrine of what most in here and the real world follow. Did they not go against 1000 years of established doctrine when doing that? are then we as Christians who close our eyes and flat out reject any thinking that goes against established doctrine that we have been taught for 400 years then no better than the Roman Catholic Church of the dark ages who we rebelled against?

 

[Hakawaka]

Just a little recap from memory as I recall & understood without going back to reread. If you care to, please correct me if I'm wrong. If I miss anyone, apology, please remind me and add yourself.

Belief & Faith are different:

@sawdust​

@Roughsoul1991​

Belief/Faith

@HeIsHere​

@reneweddaybyday (belief/faith based upon object/content)​

Belief/Faith/Trust/Will

@GWH​

Unspecified ???

@cv5​

@Hakawaka​

FWIW, apart from more detail and some explanations from Scriptures, currently as I understand each I align mostly with the rambler @reneweddaybyday and would assume @HeIsHere does as well but didn't elaborate the object/content as I recall. With some more discussion, I probably would also find [more] agreement with @sawdust and with @Roughsoul1991 who may even have identified the importance of the object/content and thus and thereby attached "Faith" as the more operative word. I also agree with @GWH adding "Trust" because it's in the lexical range of the noun pistis and the verb pisteuō, and though I agree that "Will" is associated I'd have to better understand why @GWH lists it as "=". I also find interest and likely some to much agreement with @Roughsoul1991 re: the base and inclusion of "persuasion" in the discussion as well as the word "faithfulness" which at the end of all the analysis has to be included in the discussion if not becoming one of the main points of the discussion for more than just lexical reasons.

One of the reasons I asked this is because I'm seeing what looks like fairly substantial agreement among this group in overall theology on topic of the thread, while some disagreement re: the meaning of faith & belief. Interestingly for me after years in a certain theological tradition I watched a split develop in part over the Gospel of all things. It caused me to look into some of the reasons and arguments, which led me to have to analyze more of the tradition. Sitting on an island away from everyone and isolating with just the Word and the Spirit and prayerful study, it struck me that at the core of it all was a lack of understanding of two core words and doctrines and within each the actual definitions and specifications of the two words, "faith" and "salvation".

So, thanks for answering. Anytime anyone wants to delve more into this belief and or namely faith and or namely... I may be game to participate. IMO it's not a minor issue, but a core one we should agree upon.

Again, please correct me if I've misstated anyone's position. I'm being lazy and not trying to find posts again.

If you are asking for my view, my view is:

Humans have free will, because we are made in the image of God. God reconciled the entire world in Christ, but our part is to receive the atonement through faith:



2 Corinthians 5:19-20
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


It says its all reconciled, all done, but the very next verse lets you know theres something you gotta do, you gotta be reconciled. And if its all predestined it would NEVER read this way. There is no need to "pray you in Christ's stead" because whoever is elect would automatically and definitely believe.

Another proof that we have free will is the necessity of righteous judgment, if man is not capable of making a moral choice for right or wrong, there is no righteous basis for God to judge anyone.

To say everythins is predestined is to blame God for your own sins.

 

[Magenta]

So how do we fit man's responsibility and God's will together? I sit somewhere in the middle. Not as in undecided who's doctrine to follow. But as ok some of this side has logical scripture based ideas and some of that side does. So instead of prescribing to one side or the other I take from both sides the logical scripture based arguments. Would that not allow me or anyone else to have a fuller view of scripture.

In order to have a fuller view of Scripture you must go by what Scripture actually says... there are no verses that tell us that the natural man who is an enemy of God and hostile in his mind toward Him will choose to believe the gospel which is foolishness to him, when he can neither understand nor receive the spiritual things of God when he is oposed to those very things, under the power and influence of the devil and blinded to the truth of the gospel, REFUSING to come into the light. To go by what Scripture says you must accept that man's heart is incurably wicked and he cannot change himself... with the heart one believes... that is not a tree that's gonna bring forth the good fruit of faith. Man's heart needs to be changed first. Praise the Lord God has promised to do that for us.

 

[studier]

If you are asking for my view, my view is:

I included you because I flagged you earlier when I opened the discussion regarding belief & faith because your post was in succession to a few others and you made some good points including synergy which I mentioned.

I think you and I have agreement regarding free will.

Thanks!

 

[Magenta]

I think you and I have agreement regarding free will.

You cannot even agree to what it is you actually teach.

 

[cv5]

So how do we fit man's responsibility and God's will together? I sit somewhere in the middle. Not as in undecided who's doctrine to follow. But as ok some of this side has logical scripture based ideas and some of that side does. So instead of prescribing to one side or the other I take from both sides the logical scripture based arguments. Would that not allow me or anyone else to have a fuller view of scripture.

Now the originators ofevery single Protestant denomination formed a doctrine of what most in here and the real world follow. Did they not go against 1000 years of established doctrine when doing that? are then we as Christians who close our eyes and flat out reject any thinking that goes against established doctrine that we have been taught for 400 years then no better than the Roman Catholic Church of the dark ages who we rebelled against?

Study the multitude of "redemption parables" (younger son etc) and OT "redemption scenarios" (Rahab, Ruth etc).

You will quickly discover that super-determinism is nowhere to be found.

Then study the history of Israel. Again....Calvin is a goner. Zero weight of demonstrable evidence. that supports super-determinism.

Super-determinists are just plain ignorant of the art of rightly understanding the Hebrew and Greek rhetorical sublties.

Oh well. Thank God that I have been emancipated from the super-determinist gulag. What a relief.

 

[Magenta]

One of the many false claims coming out of the free will crowd is that spiritual revelation is not necessary.

Matthew 16 verses 15-17 ~ What about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

 

[fredoheaven]

Nobody has said man does not have a will or does not make choices.

You want to talk about what Jesus said?

A bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

Let's talk about that. Man's heart is incurably wicked. Scripture says so.

It is with the heart that one believes. Scripture says so.

Can a wicked heart bring forth good fruit?

Is faith a good fruit?

By your free admission that man had choices to make, then we have nothing to cover per OP. May be in some other time I may respond to your propose sub topic.

 

[Rufus]

Firstly, because God is the final determiner of faith as you well know.



In your representation of "FWT" (using your terminology for convenience) He doesn't. In actual "FWT" (whatever that is) God by His Word and Spirit does move hearts to believe.



He's an actual Savior He offers to men to believe in.



Again, only in your explanation of what's a "true synergistic paradigm" would this be the case.



The problem with your making things clear is that you build in the above self-serving, erroneous definitions and explanations of words and then suggest that you'll prove your error with Scripture.

I doubt you'll find agreement with "FWT" that men are equal to God in anything. An offer in terms willingly set by the One in absolute control that is willingly, actively received by those not in absolute control doesn't make the parties equal. Nor does the word "synergy" require equality. The word says nothing about equality.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to the numerous posts by the avid FWers here. To them, God is not an actual Savior since there is no efficacy to his grace. All God does is provide the sons of men with opportunities to save themselves, since it is their "freewill" that actually efficacious. So...of what value is there in God "moving hearts to believe" when there is zero efficacy in that power?

Or where was this "synergism" (so called) in the Garden when God sovereignly decreed to reconcile Eve unto himself, while simultaneously omitting Adam from that decree? Or where was it when God decreed in eternity to make Issac and Jacob participants in the Abrahamic Covenant, while simultaneously excluding Ishmael and Esau from the Covenant? Or where is the ring of synergism in God sovereignly choosing who He will have mercy and compassion on, since salvation does not depend on the man who wills or exerts himself (Rom 9:16). Or where was synergism when God rescued and redeemed the helpless Israelites in Egypt? Or where is the synergism in Peter's confession of faith? Or where was synergism when Jesus raised Lazarus from his tomb? (Oh wait...this last one doesn't count since mankind is not dead to God, and since man isn't spiritually dead, then man's own natural will power is sufficient unto salvation!) The only people on this thread that acknowledge and confess to God's supernatural power in salvation are the believers in the Doctrines of Grace.

Plus, I find your explanation now more than disingenuous since several weeks ago you yourself proclaimed that it is sinners themselves who make the difference when one group accepts the gospel and the other one does not. You didn't even give God an honorable mention! But now all of a sudden He "moves hearts" -- HEARTS no less!? What in the world does a man's heart have to do with his volition!? Salvation is all about MAN'S volition, volition, volition, volition in Pelagianism, Arminianism or Freewillism -- whichever term floats your boat.

 

[Rufus]

By your free admission that man had choices to make, then we have nothing to cover per OP. May be in some other time I may respond to your propose sub topic.

Actually, the HEART is the real issue. Man's volition is but a smokescreen. Under the New Covenant God didn't promise to give his chosen people a new will, but a new heart.

 

[Hakawaka]

I included you because I flagged you earlier when I opened the discussion regarding belief & faith because your post was in succession to a few others and you made some good points including synergy which I mentioned.

I think you and I have agreement regarding free will.

Thanks!

God bless you bro.

Heres another one: The word monergism is actually never used in the Bible, atleast the word for synergy is:



The word is used about 13 times in its different forms. So working together does not mean keeping the law of Moses to be saved. It means God initiates, we respond and receive the atonement Jesus has provided for us.

Simple as that. All arguments about boasting are completely bogus and if anything it seems the calvinist crowd is the most cold, ruthless, pride and arrogant bunch within Christendom ive ever ran into. If you wanna witness this in the comfort of your home look up debates on this subject.

 

[Hakawaka]

Another false free will claim that has surfaced among some of the FW proponents is that not every sinner
is a slave to sin. The claim being made is that only atheists choose to sin and become slaves to sin. This is
so ridiculous. People in need of God's grace are unqualified in this FWT since they do not require being set free.
I was an unbeliever for almost fifty years and not one second of that time was spent as an atheist.

No one ever made that claim. Quote it. NO ONE has ever said that, ever. Anywhere on any forum. Muslims believe in a false god and are definitely in sin. What I said was Paul quotes a psalm and in that psalm it speaks about fools who say there is no God, that is ALL i say. And you have repeated this absolutely made up claim over and over again. Can you please stop it. This smells of desperation

And more importantly, I see you posting up the same thing over and over again, and NEVER touch any of the verses I presented. Why?

You could of atleast googled some answers but instead by silence you just highlight those verses cannot be reconciled with your beliefs. You picked one line of verses, ignored the others and thats it.