Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[studier]

You didn't actually answer the questions, despite your contention. And you are free to believe as you wish. But had you actually answered the questions, you would not be able to insert man into the conversation because the passage is about God. So is Romans 1:16. Clearly the power of God in the gospel has been made manifest to believers. No such claim has been made for unbelievers. Neither is there any mention of the application of man's will. It must be assumed into the passage.

I think I did answer you.
Thank you. You're also free to choose to believe what you wish.
I did answer the question and explained how I answered it and what I see contained it man believing.
The passage is about God and man - both Jew and Greek. So is Rom1:16.
You're adding language into the verses - "made manifest" - and telling me not to do the same.
I've explained twice now that unbelievers reject God and His power in His Gospel Message, so, of course it's not applied to them.
I've explained twice now how I see man's will tied to his belief. I've not assumed anything without explaining it. As soon as we see man's belief in a passage it becomes a wider discussion.

 

[Cameron143]

Using OT ifs is useless to the topic of free will. OT Jews were in a works covenant with God under the law. And under the covenant, the stipulations for blessing were tied to obedience. Conversely, disobedience brought sanctions. The people were continually exhorted to obedience. You find this pervasively in the book of Judges. The people rebel, God brings repercussions, the people repent, and God restores the people. The if condition is built into the covenant.

But making choices is not evidence of free will. Free will has in its name free. So in order for the ability to choose be free will, one's choices could not be limited or encummbered. This is simply not true for the fallen natural man.

Thankfully, God established a new covenant. It also was a covenant of works. But this time, the covenant was not between God and man, but between God and Christ. Once the covenant was fulfilled, beneficiaries of the covenant access the benefits by grace through faith. Nothing is required because the covenant is already fulfilled. In this relationship, Christ sets one free in ever increasing degrees. If one was not limited or encumbered, why the need to be set free?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

if we are human, created in Gods image, We have free will.

 

[Cameron143]

I think I did answer you.
Thank you. You're also free to choose to believe what you wish.
I did answer the question and explained how I answered it and what I see contained it man believing.
The passage is about God and man - both Jew and Greek. So is Rom1:16.
You're adding language into the verses - "made manifest" - and telling me not to do the same.
I've explained twice now that unbelievers reject God and His power in His Gospel Message, so, of course it's not applied to them.
I've explained twice now how I see man's will tied to his belief. I've not assumed anything without explaining it. As soon as we see man's belief in a passage it becomes a wider discussion.

What does the phrase...the power of God unto salvation mean?

 

[HeIsHere]

You're adding language into the verses

Yes.

 

[cv5]

This is simply not true for the fallen natural man.

A fallacy predicated upon false assumptions (the "natural man").
All of what you propound has already been thoroughly debunked.

The whole super-determinist house of cards has collapsed a long long time ago on this thread and all others like it.

*****************************************************************************************************

These people did not TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will. Simple as that.

1Co 2:14
But the "natural man" receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up

********************************************************************************************

Whereas these people DID TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

 

[LeeLoving]

Why on earth do you think that agreeing with the truth (believing) has some magical power to create reality? You believing the sun will rise does not make it rise. You believing it will rain when the skies are grey does not make it rain. Our believing does nothing to alter the situation. The reason the situation changes (from death to life) is because this is what the LORD God has promised to those who believe. John 3:16



I never said that and honestly how you even heard that boggles my mind. What I said was John uses "kosmos" two ways. It represents the entirety of the world and it's inhabitants or it represents the Satan like thinking system, but at no time have I found John ever use the word "kosmos" to represent believers only.

I showed you three verses where John used "kosmos" in the former sense. You chose one verse that John used "kosmos" in the latter sense but neither of which represent believers only yet you want to say the three verses I chose has "kosmos" as being only believers and the verse you chose as "kosmos" representing unbelievers only. You don't even have a consistent view of who is the "world" but leap back and forth from opposing definitions to suit your narrative.

Christ came to save sinners to which the whole world belongs. He is the Lamb who takes away the sin (singular ie the sin barrier which comprises of everyone's sin) of the world we call Earth which is composed of sinners (that's all of us) so that whosoever can believe, not just a select few and to those who do find themself believing the truth that is made known by the grace of God, God delivers them from the kingdom of darkness into His Kingdom, from death to life (regeneration), from condemnation to justification. He does not save you (regeneration) to save you with the Gospel.



He didn't pay it piecemeal. You can't remove the sin barrier by leaving pieces of the sin barrier. That is not taking it away. It's either gone for all or it is not gone at all. The Lord does not look into His books Rev.20:12 to see whose sins were not nailed to the tree but whose work is compliant with His command to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Jn.6:29 All sins were nailed to the tree which, is how the Lamb can take away the sin of the world.

If anyone wants to know if their individual sins are paid for? There is but one place to be, I'll give you a hint, it is not in the world.

If I'm understanding you correctly you're saying everyone's sins are paid for? Sorry if I'm getting you wrong, but I would say yes but it's not applied to those who don't believe.

Romans 3:19-24 King James Version
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

If I'm getting this right it's saying the righteousness of God is applied to believers, "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe". People like to say we are credited with Christ's righteousness and there is some great exchange that takes place, where Jesus gets our sin and we get his righteousness, but if you read here it goes on to say, "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:". Jesus' death justifies believers, "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isaiah 53:11 KJV). Jesus handles our whole sin situation by taking them on himself and taking the penalty for them (death). God sees the individual as justified because the sin was handled in Jesus (Jesus received the condemnation for it). If you follow what I'm saying this circumstance is applied to believers, so while I think Jesus died for the sins of the world I don't think everyone in the world is justified (unto all and upon all them that believe - the righteousness of God), people are still in their sins.
"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24 KJV)

Sorry if I mistook what you were writing.

 

[Cameron143]

A fallacy predicated upon false assumptions (the "natural man").
All of what you propound has already been thoroughly debunked.

The whole super-determinist house of cards has collapsed a long long time ago on this thread and all others like it.

*****************************************************************************************************

These people did not TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will. Simple as that.

1Co 2:14
But the "natural man" receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up

********************************************************************************************

Whereas these people DID TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

If the fallen natural man is free, why does Jesus need to set them free?

 

[GWH]

I would like to suggest that you reconsider the meaning of the word “IF” in scripture.
Every time you come across the word, you seem to add (choice) to the meaning. For example:
A statement like “If you do this” in no way implies that the person being spoken to is able to perform what is being stated! In fact, it may well be God's way of putting a nail in the coffin of a non-believer.

Just something that I wish you would consider.

!!!

 

[studier]

FTFY.

One more thing: Remember the question I asked you several months ago about what makes the believer who accepts the gospel different from the unbeliever who doesn't? You clearly and unequivocally assigned the difference to the sinner's will -- his smarts, his intelligence, etc.. But now look and see how Paul framed this very question -- not with a "what" but with "who"!

1 Cor 4:7
7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

You very clearly boasted as though you have never received God's grace, since you said MAN makes the difference! Your own words condemn you and betray the true nature of your heart!

Remember when you said YHWH and Moses used to meet for pulled-pork sandwiches and talk soccer? You clearly boasted this special revelation was part of your special election package.

Have you ever considered reviewing your posts for fallacious argumentation? We all should.

Do you know what Paul is discussing in 1Cor4? Please run through close context and explain it.

 

[GWH]

if we are human, created in Gods image, We have free will.

Yes and adding the qualifier “moral” indicates that regarding salvation the choice is binary: God’s Way or the highway to hell.

 

[HeIsHere]

Using OT ifs is useless to the topic of free will. OT Jews were in a works covenant with God under the law. And under the covenant, the stipulations for blessing were tied to obedience. Conversely, disobedience brought sanctions. The people were continually exhorted to obedience. You find this pervasively in the book of Judges. The people rebel, God brings repercussions, the people repent, and God restores the people. The if condition is built into the covenant.

But making choices is not evidence of free will. Free will has in its name free. So in order for the ability to choose be free will, one's choices could not be limited or encummbered. This is simply not true for the fallen natural man.

Thankfully, God established a new covenant. It also was a covenant of works. But this time, the covenant was not between God and man, but between God and Christ. Once the covenant was fulfilled, beneficiaries of the covenant access the benefits by grace through faith. Nothing is required because the covenant is already fulfilled. In this relationship, Christ sets one free in ever increasing degrees. If one was not limited or encumbered, why the need to be set free?

You know what is not true of FALLEN man and God >>>>

>>>>>God did not create the fallen nature of man so that he/she would be born unable to respond to the Truth and Spirit filled words of

the Gospel's message unless given a unique, special, divine intervention to respond positively throughout all time.

 

[HeIsHere]

A fallacy predicated upon false assumptions (the "natural man").
All of what you propound has already been thoroughly debunked.

The whole super-determinist house of cards has collapsed a long long time ago on this thread and all others like it.

*****************************************************************************************************

These people did not TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will. Simple as that.

1Co 2:14
But the "natural man" receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up

********************************************************************************************

Whereas these people DID TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

Yes and will the determinists deal with theses scriptures, probably not.

 

[cv5]

Yes and will the determinists deal with theses scriptures, probably not.

No they ***WILL NOT*** "receive" them.

The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

 

[studier]

What does the phrase...the power of God unto salvation mean?

How about you start explaining Scripture. One suggestion, reword "unto" for some contemporary clarity.

 

[studier]

highway to hell.

AC/DC

 

[Cameron143]

You know what is not true of FALLEN man and God >>>>

>>>>>God did not create the fallen nature of man so that he/she would be born unable to respond to the Truth and Spirit filled words of

the Gospel's message unless given a unique, special, divine intervention to respond positively throughout all time.

So you say, but never actually produce evidence or answer questions or deal with verses that speak to the contrary. Standing question: if the fallen natural man is free, why does Jesus need to set Him free? Also, what does the phrase...the power of God unto salvation...mean?

 

[studier]

No they ***WILL NOT*** "receive" them.

The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

If I may add to back you up by using what many see as the favored newer Lexicon at this time re: G2983 used in 1Cor2:12 (main points only). Note #6 & 7.

1. to get hold of someth. by laying hands on or grasping someth., directly or indirectly, take, take hold of, grasp, take in hand

2. to take away, remove

3. to take into one’s possession, take, acquire

4. to take payment, receive, accept,

5. to include in an experience, take up, receive

6. to make a choice, choose, select

7. to accept as true, receive

8. to enter into a close relationship, receive, make one’s own, apprehend/comprehend

9. Special uses: the OT is the source of λαμβάνειν πρόσωπον show partiality/favoritism (my note: literally receive [a] face)

10. to be a receiver, receive, get, obtain

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If the fallen natural man is free, why does Jesus need to set them free?

they are free

to receive the gift of life that could save them

or continue in unbelief, and suffer their fate.

 

[studier]

If I may add to back you up by using what many see as the favored newer Lexicon at this time re: G2983 used in 1Cor2:12 (main points only). Note #6 & 7.

Bauer-Danker, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (BDAG)