Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[BillyBob]

It does not take strength to believe.

I stand corrected, it takes a miracle!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well, I guess I might as well include you in the same proposal I made to BB and then Mag:
If you will stop the ad hominems and want to discuss Scripture congenially,
please share one at a time and we will see if we can have a constructive discussion
that does not degenerate into playing ping-pong.

i hope your young it’s gonna be a long wait lol

 

[GWH]

Since Magenta has already posted many times what scripture proclaims concerning Man's salvation, I will refer you back to her post #1960 on page 98.
I do this because she is much more adapt at organizing and presenting facts than I. And, her references are always spot on!
This panel outlines both man's inability to please God, and the miracle perform by God to save us in spite of our depravity.

After reading through it, if you still believe that man turns to God in his own strength, please do not come back with scripture which says something like “turn to me and be saved”. Such scriptures simply speak of a requirement, but in no way speaks of man's ability perform the act without God first changing his depraved heart.
I will always admit that I may be wrong and that those who trust in MFW could be correct, (but I just cannot see it). Either way, I do not think it is a salvation issue!

Okay, the first Scripture is Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context
and NT teaching.

The immediate context includes:

Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."

Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."

Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."

Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."

Is this sufficient, or do we need to cite relevant NT Scripture also?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Okay, the first Scripture is Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context
and NT teaching.

The immediate context includes:

Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."

Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."

Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."

Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."

Is this sufficient, or do we need to cite relevant NT Scripture also?

The heart becomes wicked because we freely choose to serve sin . Children aren’t born with wicked hearts as satans servants … as we grow up in the world we sin and our hearts are corrupted by it . We turn away from God and become that way because we sin and serve it and begin craving it .

I don’t know how anyone could look at a child and believe they are just born wicked and couldn’t possibly learn to choose good rather than evil but many believe that we’re just born seperated from God not because of anything we personally chose or did but just because we’re made wrong .

really though the bi le says if you raise a child right on the ways of the lord they won’t depart from it but if you raise them wrong they’ll struggle mightily

 

[GWH]

The heart becomes wicked because we freely choose to serve sin . Children aren’t born with wicked hearts as satans servants … as we grow up in the world we sin and our hearts are corrupted by it . We turn away from God and become that way because we sin and serve it and begin craving it .

I don’t know how anyone could look at a child and believe they are just born wicked and couldn’t possibly learn to choose good rather than evil but many believe that we’re just born seperated from God not because of anything we personally chose or did but just because we’re made wrong .

really though the bi le says if you raise a child right on the ways of the lord they won’t depart from it but if you raise them wrong they’ll struggle mightily

Yes, and at some point the heart may become so corrupt that it will never again repent,
but that is not until after the person has had the opportunity to seek God,
which opportunity is what makes the sinner accountable and hell just.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, and at some point the heart may become so corrupt that it will never again repent,
but that is not until after the person has had the opportunity to seek God,
which opportunity is what makes the sinner accountable and hell just.

Egg zactly ! god isn’t judging us based on what he made us do or he pre determined we would do he informs mankind of the truth and the judgement ahead and then calls on them to believe his word and respond accordingly as if we believe it

 

[Magenta]

It does not take strength to believe.

You have reduced belief to making a moral decision. But of course in your theology the unregenerate man is not such a bad guy even though Scripture attests that his heart is incurably wicked, which means he cannot change himself. He is not good, there are none good, all have turned away, and this is repeated multiple times in a number of ways across many books in both testaments, but you brush it aside in preference for your opinion which contradicts what Jesus said. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

 

[Rufus]

The heart becomes wicked because we freely choose to serve sin . Children aren’t born with wicked hearts as satans servants … as we grow up in the world we sin and our hearts are corrupted by it . We turn away from God and become that way because we sin and serve it and begin craving it .

I don’t know how anyone could look at a child and believe they are just born wicked and couldn’t possibly learn to choose good rather than evil but many believe that we’re just born seperated from God not because of anything we personally chose or did but just because we’re made wrong .

really though the bi le says if you raise a child right on the ways of the lord they won’t depart from it but if you raise them wrong they’ll struggle mightily

Of course children are born with wicked hearts. Do children come into this world born in Adam or in the Last Adam?

Do infants inherit the sinless nature of the Last Adam or the sin nature of Adam?

In Rom 5:12ff. which teaches the typology between Adam and Christ, did Paul make any exception for children not being in Adam?

And did Jesus make an exception for "innocent" children in Mk 10:18?

Or did Jesus make an exception when he called the Jewish generation of his day (and by extension all mankind) evil (Mat 7:11)?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Of course children are born with wicked hearts. Do children come into this world born in Adam or in the Last Adam?

Do infants inherit the sinless nature of the Last Adam or the sin nature of Adam?

In Rom 5:12ff. which teaches the typology between Adam and Christ, did Paul make any exception for children not being in Adam?

And did Jesus make an exception for "innocent" children in Mk 10:18?

Or did Jesus make an exception when he called the Jewish generation of his day (and by extension all mankind) evil (Mat 7:11)?

As usual I disagree with pretty much every point you’re trying to make so imna not even waste my time. It’s a pity you see children tbat way you should try to look and become like they are that’s who the kingdom is for

 

[GWH]

As usual I disagree with pretty much every point you’re trying to make so imna not even waste my time. It’s a pity you see children tbat way you should try to look and become like they are that’s who the kingdom is for

And since Rufus has skipped replying to my post that was prior to yours,
it appears that there are two down with one to go, if BB replies to my #2,083.

 

[Rufus]

Mr. GWH, sir: Tell me if you notice anything odd in this passage, and if so, what?

Deut 29:1-9
29:1 The Covenant Renewed in Moab

These are the words of the covenant that the Lord commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb.

2 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, 3 the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. 5 I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet. 6 You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God. 7 And when you came to this place, Sihon the king of Heshbon and Og the king of Bashan came out against us to battle, but we defeated them. 8 We took their land and gave it for an inheritance to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of the Manassites. 9 Therefore keep the words of this covenant and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.
ESV

 

[Rufus]

As usual I disagree with pretty much every point you’re trying to make so imna not even waste my time. It’s a pity you see children tbat way you should try to look and become like they are that’s who the kingdom is for

I see children the same way scripture does. So, please...save your pity for yourself since you are blind to what scripture teaches about them.

Gen 8:21
21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.
NIV

Prov 22:6
6 Train a child in the way he should go,
and when he is old he will not turn from it.
NIV

Prov 22:15
5 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.
NASB

Ps 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
NIV

Ps 58:3
3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
NIV

Job 14:4
4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure?
No one!

I suppose next you'll try to con us into believing that children are taught wrong from right?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You have reduced belief to making a moral decision. But of course in your theology the unregenerate man is not such a bad guy even though Scripture attests that his heart is incurably wicked, which means he cannot change himself. He is not good, there are none good, all have turned away, and this is repeated multiple times in a number of ways across many books in both testaments, but you brush it aside in preference for your opinion which contradicts what Jesus said. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

Is “unregenerate “ even an actual word lol ?

And since Rufus has skipped replying to my post that was prior to yours,
it appears that there are two down with one to go, if BB replies to my #2,083.

yeah I’ve tried a lot of times , I’m sure Rufus has tried with me also . We just don’t ever seem to see eye to eye nothing against anyone just I don’t like wasting time and that is all that brings for both of us we never get anywhere

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I see children the same way scripture does. So, please...save your pity for yourself since you are blind to what scripture teaches about them.

Gen 8:21
21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.
NIV

Prov 22:6
6 Train a child in the way he should go,
and when he is old he will not turn from it.
NIV

Prov 22:15
5 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.
NASB

Ps 51:5
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
NIV

Ps 58:3
3 Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
NIV

Job 14:4
4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure?
No one!

I suppose next you'll try to con us into believing that children are taught wrong from right?

Naw man I e told you the last few times it’s a waste of my time to try to discuss with you waste of your also with me . The silly bickering and arguing motivations ruin any interactions we have here I’m really not interested

 

[Rufus]

Naw man I e told you the last few times it’s a waste of my time to try to discuss with you waste of your also with me . The silly bickering and arguing motivations ruin any interactions we have here I’m really not interested

Bye, bye... Don't let the door hit ya on the way out...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Bye, bye... Don't let the door hit ya on the way out...

Good one . And peace to you

 

[GWH]

Mr. GWH, sir: Tell me if you notice anything odd in this passage, and if so, what?

Deut 29:1-9
29:1 The Covenant Renewed in Moab

These are the words of the covenant that the Lord commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb.

2 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, 3 the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. 5 I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet. 6 You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God. 7 And when you came to this place, Sihon the king of Heshbon and Og the king of Bashan came out against us to battle, but we defeated them. 8 We took their land and gave it for an inheritance to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of the Manassites. 9 Therefore keep the words of this covenant and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.
ESV

I notice nothing odd in the passage, but I notice you provided no Scripture supporting TULIP
for us to discuss per my proposal, so I still count you as number two down while waiting to see what BB does.

 

[cv5]

It’s a pity you see children tbat way you should try to look and become like they are that’s who the kingdom is for

Yes, this is true.
So why is it that the super-determinists see children as utterly wicked when God does not?
And everyone else other than themselves?

 

[Rufus]

I notice nothing odd in the passage, but I notice you provided no Scripture supporting TULIP
for us to discuss per my proposal, so I still count you as number two down while waiting to see what BB does.

I'm not surprised. BUT...Here's the passage again...this time I'll highlight certain texts. Perhaps the Lord will put salve on your eyes to cure your blindness.

Deut 29:1-9
29:1 The Covenant Renewed in Moab


These are the words of the covenant that the Lord commanded Moses to make with the people of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant that he had made with them at Horeb.

2 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, 3 the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. 5 I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet. 6 You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the Lord your God. 7 And when you came to this place, Sihon the king of Heshbon and Og the king of Bashan came out against us to battle, but we defeated them. 8 We took their land and gave it for an inheritance to the Reubenites, the Gadites, and the half-tribe of the Manassites. 9 Therefore keep the words of this covenant and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do.
ESV

If with this highlighting you still cannot see the tension between vv.4 and 9, don't be shy. Give me a shout because the Lord has given me a heart to understand and eyes to see and ears to hear; therefore, I'm well positioned to explain the passage to you in its historical context. And if you want the Reader's Digest version of context, I refer you to Heb 3:12-19.

 

[Rufus]

Yes, this is true.
So why is it that the super-determinists see children as utterly wicked when God does not?
And everyone else other than themselves?

And you see children as utterly.....???? Sinless? Perfect? Righteous? Good? Holy? Innocent? And of course, you can back up what you think you see about them from scripture?