Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Pilgrimshope]

They simply reject what the Scriptures say. Sad.

So then faith is the result of what? Man's reason or the Spirit of God?

“faith is the result of what?”

“Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Faith comes from here and is offered to all creation

“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, ( through faith )

but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[lrs68]

In those verses I posted earlier, they all spoke to THOUGHTS -- thoughts in the human heart. But according to you, this cannot possibly be since all thoughts reside only in one's mind, don't they? I mean...what part of this text can you not understand:

Matt 15:19-20a
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean'...?
NIV

There's a reason why Prov 4:23 teaches those who eyes to see "That above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life". But I suppose you think Solomon was teaching everyone to guard the heart that is pumping blood, right?

For OUT OF THE HEART comes evil thoughts and to you that is not the heart with the issue.

That verse can't be any plainer and you still don't get it. Now I know why you believe like you do because you don't understand anything at all.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good argument. Would you like me to make it simpler for you? Sure. You make things up to try to make your erroneous tradition work.

Hope that helps.

It’s a circle

 

[Cameron143]

“faith is the result of what?”

“Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Faith comes from here and is offered to all creation

“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, ( through faith )

but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭NIV‬‬

So...faith originates with men or God?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Scripture makes plain that the natural man's will is not free. Why it takes any length of time to convince
so-called believers of what Scripture says is perplexing. Oh, aside from the fact that they are very attached
to their lies which hey, they come from the devil, right? Or do you deny that as well???[/QUOTE

And Pilgrim's hope finds it funny? Odd. Oh, well, he is another who rejects what Scripture says while presenting himself as a believer.

Rejecting the very words of Jesus Christ Himself. Denying what He said in favour of what he says. That is sad also.

And not laughable. But you can laugh at the truth of it if you like. You probably do. It's funny to you for some reason.

And that is sad also.

I find you explaining how other people reject scripture funny actually

 

[studier]

It's good to know that, on top of everything else, God has now been defined as a fortune teller!

Knowing in advance that some would choose to believe His Word that Jesus is His Christ makes God a fortune teller?

You're sinking to the idiocy of your friends here, BB 1Cor15:33.

 

[lrs68]

From the views of Scholars and Theologians:
In the Bible, the "heart" often represents the core of a person, encompassing not just emotions but also thoughts, will, and desires, making it the central issue of one's being, rather than just the mind or feelings. While the mind is involved in thinking, the heart is depicted as the source and driving force behind actions and decisions.

Elaboration:
The Heart as the Control Center:
The Bible frequently uses "heart" to refer to the inner person, the seat of one's being. It's the place where intentions, motivations, and true character are formed.


The HEART controls everything not the mind.
The Mind is what determines right from wrong.

 

[Magenta]

Faith comes from here and is offered to all creation

Here, or hearing? Not all hear. Jesus said so. This gets denied and contradicted as well. Oh, yes, by you, too. Do you find that funny also?

People's ears require circumcising. Their eyes need to be opened. Their hearts and minds... altered. But Scripture says man's
heart is incurably wicked. That simply means man cannot change himself. It does not mean God cannot change man.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So...faith originates with men or God?

God of course. As all things worthy originate from him.

He’s made it freely available to anyone who is willing to hear and believe the gospel. I’m at a free gift that saves people but it requires us to listen to and accept what he said in the gospel that’s where faith comes from it’s already been provided by the lord in the gospel

Now we humans have to accept it or reject it being his word. That doesn’t change the fact that faith is a gift from god it’s just not a hidden magical thing he does only for the chosen ones it’s freely available to everyone in the gospel

 

[Magenta]

God of course. As all things worthy originate from him.

He’s made it freely available to anyone who is willing to hear and believe the gospel. I’m at a free gift that saves people but it requires us to listen to and accept what he said in the gospel that’s where faith comes from it’s already been provided by the lord in the gospel

Now we humans have to accept it or reject it being his word. That doesn’t change the fact that faith is a gift from god
it’s just not a hidden magical thing he does only for the chosen ones it’s freely available to everyone in the gospel

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Here, or hearing? Not all hear. Jesus said so. This gets denied and contradicted as well. Oh, yes, by you, too. Do you find that funny also?

People's ears require circumcising. Their eyes need to be opened. Their hearts and minds... altered. But Scripture says man's
heart is incurably wicked. That simply means man cannot change himself. It does not mean God cannot change man.

“Here, or hearing?”

here

“He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Is where hearing comes from

“Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Not all hear. Jesus said so.

a yeah he said that israel who he made deaf to his word couldn’t all hear true . Paul said it too that isralites were made dead and couldn’t hear but you misapply that to everyone else


This gets denied and contradicted as well. Oh, yes, by you, too. Do you find that funny also?

yeah anytime you are disagrees with someone else is “ denying scripture “ but when your shown scripture you don’t want to hear you do the exact thing your saying of others that’s what I found funny sort of the pot and kettle calling each other metal


“People's ears require circumcising. Their eyes need to be opened. Their hearts and minds... altered. But Scripture says man's heart is incurably wicked. “

Yeah it says they became that way from serving wickedness sure and that’s what the doctrine is for like circumcision of the flesh

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Anyone can hear the gospel and believe or reject it . We become servants of sin because we choose freely to serve it then we become a snared by satans Will and need freedom …..

that comes when we accept the gospel and that’s not something that we aren’t able to do we’re corrupted but we can be redeemed

 

[lrs68]

From the views of Scholars and Theologians:
In the Bible, the "heart" often represents the core of a person, encompassing not just emotions but also thoughts, will, and desires, making it the central issue of one's being, rather than just the mind or feelings. While the mind is involved in thinking, the heart is depicted as the source and driving force behind actions and decisions.

Elaboration:
The Heart as the Control Center:
The Bible frequently uses "heart" to refer to the inner person, the seat of one's being. It's the place where intentions, motivations, and true character are formed.


The HEART controls everything not the mind.
The Mind is what determines right from wrong.

This is why God manifests Himself to the consciousness and not to the heart.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

yep then

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What did he do after he died ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

rhe message of Jesus death for our sins and resurrection draws all men to him that doesn’t mean they will choose him

Again so you understand why I quoted that

You quoted this

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And then I wuoted this which he said how he would draw all men to himself

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s no secret calling for some and not others the gospel is gods call to all mankind and everyone who believes will be saved but again they don’t need something else to draw them Jesus death for our sins does that .

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

a you need to distinguish isrwel from the rest of the people they were under a different covenant and enduring a lot of curses and consequences you tend to apply thiers covenant to everyone else

 

[Magenta]

a yeah he said that israel who he made deaf to his word couldn’t all hear true . Paul said it too that isralites were made dead and couldn’t hear but you misapply that to everyone else

This gets denied and contradicted as well. Oh, yes, by you, too. Do you find that funny also?

yeah anytime you are disagrees with someone else is “ denying scripture “ but when your shown scripture you don’t want to hear you do the exact thing your saying of others that’s what I found funny sort of the pot and kettle calling each other metal

I have not ever seen even one verse that affirms free will of the natural man. In fact the whole idea contradicts what Scripture actually says of the natural man in multiple ways across a plethora of verses, Bible books and in both testaments, which are all routinely ignored contradicted and/or outright denied. I showed the verse where it says it is with the heart that one believes. But you find it funny and now find it reasonable to falsely accuse me also. This is not the person you were before. Or maybe you just hid your true self. Some things said of Jews apply to everyone, or are they not human in your view? Wow. Just unbelievable the things people say.

 

[studier]

G2983
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

I think this is a big pill for them to swallow, so to speak.

This verb can carry the concept of actively choosing. In fact, one of the definitions for it in the BDAG Lexicon is: 6. to make a choice, choose, select. Another interesting definition from BDAG that applies in these discussions is: 7. to accept as true, receive.

Knowing in advance that we will be tactically by prepared script and stupidly accused of being satanic for reading and quoting from language tools, all we have to do to see this in perspective is to add this in a generalized sense:

John answered and said, "A man can receive/lay hold of/choose nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. (Jn. 3:27 NKJ)

We understand first cause, aka Grace.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have not ever seen even one verse that affirms free will of the natural man. In fact the whole idea contradicts what Scripture actually says of the natural man in multiple ways across a plethora of verses which are all routinely ignored contradicted and outright denied. I showed the verse where it says it is with the heart that one believes. But you find it funny and now find it reasonable to falsely accuse me also. This is not the person you were before. Or maybe you just hid your true self. Things said of Jews apply to everyone, they are not human in your view? Wow. Just unbelievable the things people say.

“I have not ever seen even one verse that affirms free will of the natural man”

i asked someone else this recently can you define what someone’s “ will “ is ? To you I mean what are you meaning when you say “ free Will “ ?


I’m clear that you think free Will isnt real bit what exactly are you meaning by “Will “?

 

[Cameron143]

God of course. As all things worthy originate from him.

He’s made it freely available to anyone who is willing to hear and believe the gospel. I’m at a free gift that saves people but it requires us to listen to and accept what he said in the gospel that’s where faith comes from it’s already been provided by the lord in the gospel

Now we humans have to accept it or reject it being his word. That doesn’t change the fact that faith is a gift from god it’s just not a hidden magical thing he does only for the chosen ones it’s freely available to everyone in the gospel

Well that's my question: if faith originates with God, isn't He the One who produces it? And if He produces faith, someone who possesses faith has received it from God? My point being, either someone believes because faith has been produced in them or it is not present and the individual will reject God. If God produces faith, the one in which the faith is produced will believe. The one in which faith is not produced will not believe.

 

[Magenta]

Hey, it says we put no confidence in the flesh. This does not apply to free willers, though.

Nothing good exists in the flesh. Oops. Denied again by free willers.

Man's heart is incurably wicked. A bad tree cannot produce good fruit.

Oh oh. So many verses denied by the free will crowd.

It's amazing how many, really!!!

Philippians 3 verse 3; Colossians 2 verse 11; Romans 2 verse 29b ~ For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. You were also circumcised, in the putting off of your sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code.

 

[studier]

Perhaps the line-upon-line crowd will quit falling over backwards one of these days?

Would be nice for all of us.

 

[Magenta]

Would be nice for all of us.

Do you have a verse articulating the opposite of what Scripture teaches in 1 Cor 2:14???

Or would you like some hash browns to go with that egg on your face?

Perhaps a little ketchup to wash it all down with how the whole world is blinded and under the influence of the wicked one.

You can keep pretending you are walking the moral high ground even if you are seated to gobble it all up.

I do hope some day you come to accept what Scripture says. Now that would be nice for all of us.