Well he tends to leave us to our own devices until judgement day so odds are that is what he would do
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
- Thread starter LifelongLearner
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
maybe, but you've recognised that God will intervene with nature, and the natural man that do things out of nature
Do you think that's possibly why God took the actions he did with .
Mans nature in the garden
FWers promote the unregenerated man's ability, whereas Scripture speaks against it. Helpful hint (again): cannot does not mean can.
The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. The world does not recognize Him. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. The one who loves God is known by God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us.
The world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. The world does not recognize Him. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him. The one who loves God is known by God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile toward God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it. Whoever is not from God does not listen to us.
Yeah probably I mean it makes sense to memaybe, but you've recognised that God will intervene with nature, and the natural man that do things out of nature
Do you think that's possibly why God took the actions he did with .
Mans nature in the garden
Well if I understood correctly then yeah maybe a little but it does make sense when you think about itno worries bro, I can see you have a good hesitance there, always nice to see.
Of course, you are! In your arrogant, prideful heart you pride yourself as being naturally humble by nature, don't you!? I bet you think you're more humble than Jesus Christ himself, don't you!? You truly have redefined what it means to be self-deceived!
Furthermore, there's no way you can objectively substantiate that God has ever given YOU grace. Scripture is filled with examples of false prophets, false teachers, false professors of faith, tares, etc. Tell me, Mr. Studier, is it by God's grace that you disobey scripture by habitually forsaking the assembly of believers!? Is it by God's grace that you continue in this sin!? Is it by God's grace that you think so highly of yourself that you're too good to attach yourself to a local body of believers because you think you're such a hotshot paragon of knowledge, wisdom and understanding, and so this give you the right to look down your long condescending snout at Christ's Church? You remind me of the Pharisees whom Jesus unflatteringly characterized as whitewashed tombs filled with dead men's bones! The stench of your self-righteousness is overbearing!
But as for me and my household our humility is found only in our Federal Head who came into this world as a lowly, meek, mild, humble Servant of his God and my God! But your pride will not allow you to accept this truth because of the profound implications to it. Since the saints' humility was also imputed to them, along with Christ's righteousness, then this can only mean that God's elect whom God predestined in Christ in eternity are the only ones for whom Christ died! When God in eternity looks at his saints, he sees them only through the perfect righteousness and holiness of his Beloved Son; He sees not so much as a scintilla of sin in any of his saints! So...your second syllogism is just as intellectually, logically and biblically bankrupt as your first one!
Your first one assumes that man has the ability to change his nature. But he doesn't! Man's sin nature is immutable! That's what Jer 13:23 is all about -- even though you tried to con us into believing with your very lame metaphor argument that implied the Ethiopian and leopard can learn to change, since Israel "learned" to sin, according to your favored translation.But the reality is that mankind has no power to change its essence, anymore than God does! And Joshua was proven right and justified in his words since Israel's history was so abysmal, in spite of Israel's "willingness" to change (Josh 24:21-22).
Ps 78:1-79:1
78:1 Tell the Coming Generation
A Maskil of Asaph.
1 Give ear, O my people, to my teaching;incline your ears to the words of my mouth!2 I will open my mouth in a parable;I will utter dark sayings from of old, 3 things that we have heard and known,that our fathers have told us.4 We will not hide them from their children,but tell to the coming generation the glorious deeds of the Lord, and his might,and the wonders that he has done.
5 He established a testimony in Jacob and appointed a law in Israel,which he commanded our fathers to teach to their children,6 that the next generation might know them,the children yet unborn,and arise and tell them to their children,7 so that they should set their hope in God and not forget the works of God,but keep his commandments; 8 and that they should not be like their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation,a generation whose heart was not steadfast,whose spirit was not faithful to God.
9 The Ephraimites, armed with the bow, turned back on the day of battle.10 They did not keep God's covenant,but refused to walk according to his law.11 They forgot his works and the wonders that he had shown them.12 In the sight of their fathers he performed wonders in the land of Egypt, in the fields of Zoan.13 He divided the sea and let them pass through it,and made the waters stand like a heap.14 In the daytime he led them with a cloud,and all the night with a fiery light.15 He split rocks in the wilderness and gave them drink abundantly as from the deep.16 He made streams come out of the rock and caused waters to flow down like rivers.
17 Yet they sinned still more against him, rebelling against the Most High in the desert.18 They tested God in their heart by demanding the food they craved.19 They spoke against God, saying, "Can God spread a table in the wilderness?20 He struck the rock so that water gushed out and streams overflowed.Can he also give bread or provide meat for his people?"
21 Therefore, when the Lord heard, he was full of wrath; a fire was kindled against Jacob;his anger rose against Israel, 22 because they did not believe in God and did not trust his saving power. 23 Yet he commanded the skies above and opened the doors of heaven,24 and he rained down on them manna to eat and gave them the grain of heaven. 25 Man ate of the bread of the angels;he sent them food in abundance. 26 He caused the east wind to blow in the heavens,and by his power he led out the south wind; 27 he rained meat on them like dust,winged birds like the sand of the seas; 28 he let them fall in the midst of their camp,all around their dwellings. 29 And they ate and were well filled,for he gave them what they craved. 30 But before they had satisfied their craving, while the food was still in their mouths, 31 the anger of God rose against them,and he killed the strongest of them and laid low the young men of Israel.
32 In spite of all this, they still sinned; despite his wonders, they did not believe. 33 So he made their days vanish like a breath, and their years in terror. 34 When he killed them, they sought him;they repented and sought God earnestly. 35 They remembered that God was their rock,the Most High God their redeemer. 36 But they flattered him with their mouths;they lied to him with their tongues. 37 Their heart was not steadfast toward him;they were not faithful to his covenant.38 Yet he, being compassionate, atoned for their iniquity and did not destroy them;he restrained his anger often and did not stir up all his wrath.39 He remembered that they were but flesh, a wind that passes and comes not again.40 How often they rebelled against him in the wilderness and grieved him in the desert!41 They tested God again and again and provoked the Holy One of Israel.42 They did not remember his power or the day when he redeemed them from the foe, 43 when he performed his signs in Egypt and his marvels in the fields of Zoan. 44 He turned their rivers to blood,so that they could not drink of their streams. 45 He sent among them swarms of flies, which devoured them,and frogs, which destroyed them. 46 He gave their crops to the destroying locust and the fruit of their labor to the locust. 47 He destroyed their vines with hail and their sycamores with frost. 48 He gave over their cattle to the hail and their flocks to thunderbolts.49 He let loose on them his burning anger,wrath, indignation, and distress,a company of destroying angels. 50 He made a path for his anger;he did not spare them from death,but gave their lives over to the plague. 51 He struck down every firstborn in Egypt,the firstfruits of their strength in the tents of Ham.52 Then he led out his people like sheep and guided them in the wilderness like a flock. 53 He led them in safety, so that they were not afraid,but the sea overwhelmed their enemies. 54 And he brought them to his holy land, to the mountain which his right hand had won. 55 He drove out nations before them;he apportioned them for a possession and settled the tribes of Israel in their tents.
56 Yet they tested and rebelled against the Most High God and did not keep his testimonies, 57 but turned away and acted treacherously like their fathers;they twisted like a deceitful bow. 58 For they provoked him to anger with their high places;they moved him to jealousy with their idols. 59 When God heard, he was full of wrath,and he utterly rejected Israel.60 He forsook his dwelling at Shiloh,the tent where he dwelt among mankind, 61 and delivered his power to captivity,his glory to the hand of the foe. 62 He gave his people over to the sword and vented his wrath on his heritage. 63 Fire devoured their young men,and their young women had no marriage song. 64 Their priests fell by the sword,and their widows made no lamentation. 65 Then the Lord awoke as from sleep,like a strong man shouting because of wine. 66 And he put his adversaries to rout;he put them to everlasting shame. 67 He rejected the tent of Joseph;he did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, 68 but he chose the tribe of Judah,Mount Zion, which he loves. 69 He built his sanctuary like the high heavens,like the earth, which he has founded forever. 70 He chose David his servant and took him from the sheepfolds; 71 from following the nursing ewes he brought him to shepherd Jacob his people,Israel his inheritance. 72 With upright heart he shepherded them and guided them with his skillful hand.
ESV
How one can tell when over the target (as they say).
Jesus' was entirely truthful and objective in describing their state and dire predicament.
They considered this assessment.......humiliating. Wrongly of course.
But yea, from their perspective Jesus was "humiliating people".
Which I am sure the High Priest felt when Jesus cleansed the Temple multiple occasions.
The determinists love to make everyone out to be a total loser. Makes them feel powerful and boosts their self-esteem. Evidently this is part of the "payoff" for "playing the game".
Jesus....was habitually doing the contrary, he was making winners out of losers. Surely He wasn't interested in "feeling powerful" or boosting His self-esteem. And He DEFINITELY wasn't playing games.
Here is another example of a winner. Jesus commends her (much like the woman of Luke 7) for her demonstration of determination, courage, perception, reverence and resolve. He loves that kind of person.
Mat 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Well God created us in his likeness, which could mean he created us how he wanted to, with a nature that should be obedient to him, would you say that's a possibility that is one of the laws of our nature
I would say that is correct.
And I would say that Natural Man is of his nature as well.
That ultimately makes Man have dual complexity which one part of him will never seek out God [the Natural part] and the other part that is made exactly like God will at least search out for God.
I believe you have presented a viewpoint that everyone else has either missed because they're held to a certain belief or they have never considered before.
It would explain why some Scripture blatantly claims that Natural Man won't seek God and other Scripture claims from God Himself for man to seek after God and he will find God if he does.
The view point was presented on the bases of mans nature before the fall not after.
I'm trying to piece together exactly whether that nature of the natural man was spiritual in any way before the fall,
I think there was only one "nature" to man before the fall so the natural and spiritual distinction did not come into existence until after the fall.
Absolutely,
On what bases could they could still seek him, just for anything,
Maybe what you thinking is that people are suggesting mankind was completely unable to use any intelligence, which would be moving the goal posts
You tell me.....
And then tell me if you see ANY evidence of super-determinism here.
Rhetorical questions. You don't see either.
What you DO see is the "divine transaction".
Here and in every other similar case!
[Luk 5:17 KJV]
And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was [present] to heal them.
[Luk 5:18 KJV]
And, behold, men brought in a bed a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought [means] to bring him in, and to lay [him] before him.
[Luk 5:19 KJV]
And when they could not find by what [way] they might bring him in because of the multitude, they went upon the housetop, and let him down through the tiling with [his] couch into the midst before Jesus.
[Luk 5:20 KJV]
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.(!)
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: