Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Jackson129]

When dire persecution arises the Biblical mandate is to flee. However, when the evil ones are firing up the ovens, fighting for your life and the life of your family may mean taking up arms and making a defense.

If did not already know, the earthy saints are literally engaged in armed warfare against the AC and his armies so noted in Revelation. Years of armed warfare in fact.

And they loose according to revaluations. If you live by the sword you will die by it. He that leadeth into captivity goith into captivity. Here is the patience of the saints. Its like the babylonian captivity which was judgment. When the Lord told them the only way to survive was going into captivity. Basically told isreal if you fight back you will die if you run you will die tired. That time will be world wide persecution there is nowhere to hide.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Galatian church was under attack from the Judaizers who were trying to turn the previously gentile Galatians into
Mosaic Law-abiding people. No, grace and truth!

There was a major conflict going on with these false teachers trying to take over the minds of these yet naive gentile believers who did not yet know any better! They were fighting amongst themselves over it! Condemning one another based upon following the Law, not grace.

You foolish Galatians! ​

Who has bewitched you? ​

​

Before your very eyes, Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. ​

​

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, ​

or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you ​

now trying to finish by means of the flesh?​

​

Galatians 3:1-3​

Well said it was actually a constant battle between the judiazers and the Christian’s then when they Jews would convert to believe the lord , they tried to re impose the law of Moses back upon them all .

Paul gives many warnings and instructions about this always guarding believers against it the apostles all gathered also to address the same issue


“And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


( James is speaking now )

…….Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

…….and they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:3, 5-7, 10, 19-21, 23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

pauls letters often discuss this almost always

 

[Kroogz]

This whole thread is a testament to the fact that many prefer ear-tickling sugar
coated lies (free will) to the truth of what the Bible actually teaches about man.

And they think it funny, too.

So do some more studies. You have mankind wired. If we ever have a question about man, we can come to you.

But you lack the very basics about God.

 

[Kroogz]

So where in this does it say how we are to bring a sword against each other? Yes I can see Jesus is coming with a sword but what has he commanded of us when it comes to each other?

If you do want to be the forum Chastizer....Look no further than @Magenta.

Magenta said:
That's what makes you a Pelagian heretic: you do not believe what the Bible says of man.

Look up "Pelagian heretic" and then scold @Magenta.

 

[Genez]

So where in this does it say how we are to bring a sword against each other? Yes I can see Jesus is coming with a sword but what has he commanded of us when it comes to each other?

​

​

For the word of God keeps on being alive and powerful. ​

Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even ​

to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; and is a critic​

- judge of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12​

If you come to the point of maturing in Christ, when you have become saturated with an abundance of sound doctrine?
The Spirit will use you and turn your thoughts into a very sharp sword.
A sword that will pierce through any pretense that sets itself up against the knowledge of Christ.

God wants Christians to become living sharp swords.

That does not mean violence and brutality.

It might mean cutting an antagonist's suspenders to have his pants fall down in front of everyone...
While others laugh to see how foolish his thinking was.

God has a phenomenal sense of humor!
He invented it!

 

[sawdust]

We were having a spirited discussion of free will and hearing the Gospel, the presentation of grace and truth and things that relate to these topics. Now, suddenly we have gone off course into "forum behaviour". I wonder why?

 

[cv5]

And they loose according to revaluations. If you live by the sword you will die by it. He that leadeth into captivity goith into captivity. Here is the patience of the saints. Its like the babylonian captivity which was judgment. When the Lord told them the only way to survive was going into captivity. Basically told isreal if you fight back you will die if you run you will die tired. That time will be world wide persecution there is nowhere to hide.

Its a little bit complicated. There will be saved GENTILES engaged in this war alongside Israelites.
Furthermore, the captivity judgements of old were warned of and due to specific law breaking and sins.
But the end-times are a different scenario with the rise of the AC and Israel being blind-sided. A unique one-off situation in fact.

Anyways, yes I get what you are saying.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

So do some more studies. You have mankind wired. If we ever have a question about man, we can come to you.

But you lack the very basics about God.

I mean ….maybe the basics of man too

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28, KJV‬‬

“And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:11-12, 14‬ ‭

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Basics are important

 

[cv5]

They follow a clique bonding dogma.
Some just have an affinity for it in their flesh, and refuse to be reasoned into correction.
For they have formed a mutual admiration society.

They cherish more the opinions of their own kind, than willing to reason with God,
to find themselves standing (initially) alone before God with no man's approval they desire to have.

Well, what I observe are vacuous "one verse wonders" soundbites that fail the test of sound exegetical treatment.

We all know who the worst offenders are.

 

[cv5]

Paul is addressing the resurrection body and how we will be raised up again natural v spiritual

See Paul’s subject here isn’t who can hear the gospel but rather

“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

…..So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural;( body ) and afterward that which is spiritual. ( body )

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, ( the natural )

we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. ( the spiritual )

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood ( natural body ) cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”( from natural to spiritual bodies )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:35, 42-44, 46-47, 49-52‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is about how we’ll be raised up no longer natural bodies which we had foret but spiritual bodies which are to come made for the new things

Right. The context here is very narrow. And needs to stay that way.

 

[cv5]

Are we talking pre-birth programmed seeking or legit free will after being born of water seeking?
I would ask the same question regarding "believing".

[Luk 11:9 KJV]
And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

[Rom 2:7 KJV]
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

[Heb 11:6 KJV]
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

We were having a spirited discussion of free will and hearing the Gospel, the presentation of grace and truth and things that relate to these topics. Now, suddenly we have gone off course into "forum behaviour". I wonder why?

Because We’re in the Bible discussion forum

 

[Kroogz]

Well, what I observe are vacuous "one verse wonders" soundbites that fail the test of sound exegetical treatment.

We all know who the worst offenders are.

I do pray that they can see this. We all know the fall of man.....But the calvies have yet to see the rise of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, I call it playing pin-pong.

What’s that shell game called where you see the shell under a cup and then they get scrambled all around ? but you never find the shell it’s always on the move until being dropped in the guys lap ? And you lose your three dollars ….

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Do we produce our own belief?

I believe faith is inherent within all descendants of Adam. It is faith within mankind which results in belief/believing ... just as the intellect within mankind results in thoughts/thinking.

As far as whether we "produce our own belief" ... we believe (or don't believe) information which has been presented to us ... the information comes from a source outside of ourselves. So, in that regard, we either believe information provided to us or we don't.

Not sure about making the Gospel more acceptable but rather trying to using solely human wisdom to understand spiritual reality.

the point is the Greeks understood the message of the cross ... it was foolishness to them, but they understood the message. They just believed that it was foolishness that a crucified Jewish man could rise from the dead, take away sins, and save mankind. Look at what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Paul is addressing two groups the ones that are being saved (believers) and those who rejected the Gospel (non-believers) are the those are perishing.

among "those who rejected the Gospel (non-believers)" there were two groups ...

Jews who considered the preaching of the cross a stumblingblock and looked for a sign (meanwhile the "sign" that Jesus was the Son of God was the resurrection from the dead - Rom 1:4); and

Greeks who sought after wisdom (meanwhile Scripture tells us the foolishness of God is wiser than man - 1 Cor 1:25).

Therefore the preaching of the Gospel divides people into two groups.

– those perishing and those being saved.

Believing the preaching of the cross is what separates the believer from the unbeliever.

Once again we see Paul asserting in the letters to the Corinthians that the believer’s carnality, like the unbeliever’s rejection of God’s word, is a result of their own choosing, not of God’s determination.

Paul indicated the problem in the church at Corinth which resulted in carnality was their tendency to follow man rather than the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Following men results in division / contentions within the body of Christ (1 Cor 1:10-11) and carnality, envying, strife (1 Cor 3:1-3).
.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I do pray that they can see this. We all know the fall of man.....But the calvies have yet to see the rise of the Lord Jesus Christ.

amen

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:20‬ ‭

 

[Kroogz]

I mean ….maybe the basics of man too

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:27-28, KJV‬‬

“And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:22‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted?

But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:11-12, 14‬ ‭

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Basics are important

@Pilgrimshope don't get me wrong, we are on the same page. But the calvies have a point about our fallen nature and hard hearts.

They overlook the FACT that God did something about it....


When He(the Holy Spirit) comes He will/convince/convict/ judge sin. And Sin? Because they don't believe in Him.

We never had "inability", The Lord Jesus Christ FIXED it way back with Adam and Eve. He even had it fixed before the foundation of the world.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I believe faith is inherent within all descendants of Adam. It is faith within mankind which results in belief/believing ... just as the intellect within mankind results in thoughts/thinking.

As far as whether we "produce our own belief" ... we believe (or don't believe) information which has been presented to us ... the information comes from a source outside of ourselves. So, in that regard, we either believe information provided to us or we don't.





the point is the Greeks understood the message of the cross ... it was foolishness to them, but they understood the message. They just believed that it was foolishness that a crucified Jewish man could rise from the dead, take away sins, and save mankind. Look at what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?





among "those who rejected the Gospel (non-believers)" there were two groups ...

Jews who considered the preaching of the cross a stumblingblock and looked for a sign (meanwhile the "sign" that Jesus was the Son of God was the resurrection from the dead - Rom 1:4); and

Greeks who sought after wisdom (meanwhile Scripture tells us the foolishness of God is wiser than man - 1 Cor 1:25).





Believing the preaching of the cross is what separates the believer from the unbeliever.





Paul indicated the problem in the church at Corinth which resulted in carnality was their tendency to follow man rather than the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Following men results in division / contentions within the body of Christ (1 Cor 1:10-11) and carnality, envying, strife (1 Cor 3:1-3).
.

the point is the Greeks understood the message of the cross ... it was foolishness to them, but they understood the message.

They just believed that it was foolishness that a crucified Jewish man could rise from the dead, take away sins, and save mankind.

Look at what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?”

well said some people hear about God and they don’t believe he exists others believe other versions they hear of god other religions like rome at the time they had tboer own dieties they worshipped and had faith in they prayed to offered to ect so they here and comprehend the message they just reject it when they hear it .

They don’t believe that Jesus is the son of god , born in the flesh who suffered and died for sins was raised up to life for justifcation after his burial. And ascended back into heaven or that he’ll return again ect they reject the message. When they hear it also because it calls us to live better and repent and do good and not evil ect

 

[Kroogz]

I believe faith is inherent within all descendants of Adam. It is faith within mankind which results in belief/believing ... just as the intellect within mankind results in thoughts/thinking.

As far as whether we "produce our own belief" ... we believe (or don't believe) information which has been presented to us ... the information comes from a source outside of ourselves. So, in that regard, we either believe information provided to us or we don't.





the point is the Greeks understood the message of the cross ... it was foolishness to them, but they understood the message. They just believed that it was foolishness that a crucified Jewish man could rise from the dead, take away sins, and save mankind. Look at what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?





among "those who rejected the Gospel (non-believers)" there were two groups ...

Jews who considered the preaching of the cross a stumblingblock and looked for a sign (meanwhile the "sign" that Jesus was the Son of God was the resurrection from the dead - Rom 1:4); and

Greeks who sought after wisdom (meanwhile Scripture tells us the foolishness of God is wiser than man - 1 Cor 1:25).





Believing the preaching of the cross is what separates the believer from the unbeliever.





Paul indicated the problem in the church at Corinth which resulted in carnality was their tendency to follow man rather than the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:10-13 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


1 Corinthians 3:1-4 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Following men results in division / contentions within the body of Christ (1 Cor 1:10-11) and carnality, envying, strife (1 Cor 3:1-3).
.

You are a blessing with your insight and teaching. Thank you.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

@Pilgrimshope don't get me wrong, we are on the same page. But the calvies have a point about our fallen nature and hard hearts.

They overlook the FACT that God did something about it....


When He(the Holy Spirit) comes He will/convince/convict/ judge sin. And Sin? Because they don't believe in Him.

We never had "inability", The Lord Jesus Christ FIXED it way back with Adam and Eve. He even had it fixed before the foundation of the earth.

Yeah, I know ….we became tbrough our own judgements like this before jesus came

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“They overlook the FACT that God did something about it....”

yeah sort of . I dont think they are acknolwedging what the gospel is and who the gospel is preached to or who can hear what the gospel says . But that’s only my own opinion from reading some of what they said and. NOt really intently following the conversations they are engaged in ect so really not an informed position just my
Own perception of what I feel a few might be missing .

then again I’m just an old man with nothing else to do but chat on a Bible discussion forum currently so it’s always good to dash ot with alot of salt and not take it to be anything official or more than an opinion by a fellow believer