Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Blain said:
See that is the issue you see this as an arena it is not an arena it is in every way also a church just not in a building. If you go into a debate with that kind of mindset you will never learn anything and never grow in spirit you only come to make war and be in war and that will only cause more strife both in your heart and the hearts of others. Tell me this where in scripture does say to make war with each other? all I have seen in scripture is to encourage and build each other up r. 1 Thessalonians 5:11 states, "Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing." Other verses like Hebrews 3:13 and Hebrews 10:24-25
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I know where you are coming from, sir...

You be yourself in the Lord. Don't change.
And, it appears you wish to have me molded into someone you want me to be.

But, those with certain gifts can not conform to your desired out come.

"Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called
when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses." 1 Timothy 6:12

It is a fight if your gift demands it be so.
If you are one called to sit in a pew and learn, it is another expression of being in the battle.
 
It seems there are simply 2 versions of this verse being suggested:

NKJ Rom10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

vs.

Rom10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher unless the Word supernaturally opens their ears?

Change and/or explain to your heart's content.
 
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Genez said:
When you use a GPS to travel somewhere?
You use faith in following the directions.

Faith is trusting in what you have been shown, or told.
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But that faith doesn't come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
Genez said:
I know where you are coming from, sir...

You be yourself in the Lord. Don't change.
And, it appears you wish to have me molded into someone you want me to be.

But, those with certain gifts can not conform to your desired out come.

"Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called
when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses." 1 Timothy 6:12

It is a fight if your gift demands it be so.
If you are one called to sit in a pew and learn, it is another expression of being in the battle.
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Firstly no I do not wish to mold you into someone else I simply want you to understand the way to debate and to have the mind of Christ not one of a battle fanatic

Secondly that verse does not mean to justify fighting each other the fight of faith is not against each other but you seem to have it in your mind it does and that it justifies fighting each other but read the whole chapter before you pull a verse out of context it says something entirely different
 
Genez said:
It was an analogy in attempt tp show what Grace in the action of saving someone does.
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It's a supposed analogy that demonstrates grace in action not found in scripture. There actually is scripture that demonstrates grace in action...Acts 2:37.
 
Genez said:
I know where you are coming from, sir...

You be yourself in the Lord. Don't change.
And, it appears you wish to have me molded into someone you want me to be.

But, those with certain gifts can not conform to your desired out come.

"Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called
when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses." 1 Timothy 6:12

It is a fight if your gift demands it be so.
If you are one called to sit in a pew and learn, it is another expression of being in the battle.
Click to expand...

I was just pondering and praying about some of this. I think there are a lot of lessons being taught by the Spirit on this topic. Do you recall quite a bit of teaching associated with the phrase "eyes on people" vs. "eyes on the Lord"?
 
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Magenta said:
When FWers believe they have produced their own faith from the flesh, they cannot see it as a gift.
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Cameron143 said:
This isn't to say there isn't a natural faith. There certainly is.
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there is no such thing as "faith from the flesh" ... or "natural faith" ... faith is faith and there is only one faith (Eph 4:5).


Mankind was created in the image of God ... God is faithful and I believe one of the attributes within Adam at the time he was created, formed, made was faith ... but I guess when Adam sinned it wasn't just the spirit (the vital part of him that allowed him to have close communication with God) within Adam that died ... it was his faith that also died ... but everything else remained ... intellectual capacity, emotions, senses (although affected by the fall) ... but according to some faith did not remain. And yet Abel, the son of Adam, offered a more excellent sacrifice by faith. (Heb 11:4).


Deuteronomy 7:9-10 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.


I asked a question the other day about these verses ...


2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe [Greek = pisteuō] a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Do you think God births faith in these folks so they can believe a lie? No ... they believe with the faith inherent within which allows mankind to either believe truth (believe), reject truth (unbelief), believe lies (believe).

The Greek word in vs 11 is pisteuō ... the same word used when the born again ones pisteuō the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation.
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studier said:
I was just pondering and praying about some of this. I think there are a lot of lessons being taught by the Spirit on this topic. Do you recall quite a bit of teaching associated with the phrase "eyes on people" vs. "eyes on the Lord"?
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I am interested to see where you are going with this you have my attention
 
Cameron143 said:
The natural man operates only according to the flesh. His mind is hostile towards God and is not subject to the law, nor can he be...Romans 8:7. So how does someone in that estate believe the command to believe or mortify the flesh?
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he or she gets born again in accordance with Romans 1:16-17 ... then start maturing in the things of God.

The issue in Romans 8 is the born again one is delivered from the bondage of sin ... remember Romans 7:25? ... who shall deliver me from this dead body ? I thank God through the Lord Jesus Christ ... Romans 8 follows on what we read in Romans 7.

In Romans 7, we are told the things we want to do we don't do and the things we don't want to do we do because of the flesh.

In Romans 8, we are told that through the new man abiding in the Lord Jesus Christ, we can do the things we want to do and we can overcome the things we don't want to do ... the precious in-birthing we received at the time we were born again is more than capable of doing the things of God. The problem is we allow our flesh to draw us away from the Lord through the lust for the things of this world which the devil bombards us with day in and day out. That is why it is so important for us to continue reading the Scriptures daily ... pray daily ... fellowship with the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ ... and fellow believers daily.

Bottom line ... Romans 8:7 is not instruction to the natural man ... Romans 8:7 is instruction to the born again believer. This instruction further develops into put off the old man (Eph 4:22; Col 3:9) and put on the new man (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10).
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studier said:
It seems there are simply 2 versions of this verse being suggested:

NKJ Rom10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

vs.

Rom10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher unless the Word supernaturally opens their ears?

Change and/or explain to your heart's content.
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Somebody tell @Cameron143 that the context is hearing AND OBEYING the PREACHING by those whom God has SENT.

"So then faith cometh ***OF/FROM/OUT OF G1537*** hearing, and hearing ***THROUGH G1223*** the word of God" (BEING PREACHED!)

The Berean Literal Bible gets it right.

"So faith is FROM hearing, and hearing THROUGH the word of Christ."

Never let a bizarre faulty out of context interpretation that gives rise to an heresy go to waste is the super-determinist way I guess.
 
Cameron143 said:
Again, misses the point. The cause of faith is very important.
Back to gobbledygook. I never claimed to be special.
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So the you say the cause of faith is.....pre-birth selection super-determinism?

I mean that what it all boils down to right? I mean, this is the ULTIMATE CAUSE of literally everything everywhere all the time without exception. Right?
 
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Jackson129 said:
Im trying to follow this line of thought.
Hearing comes by the word of God and faith comes from hearing the word of God. That would mean faith comes by the word of God.

Word of God <-Hearing comes from <- faith comes from Hearing. The word of God is then responsible for both.
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Don't get hazed by the kind of bizarre nuttery that goes on around here where every verse is an obscure mystery that only the self-elect Gnostics can comprehend.

Framed by context all that is being stated here is that God sent preachers to proclaim the gospel. Some choose to hear/obey, some choose not to.

Simple as that.
 
studier said:
It seems there are simply 2 versions of this verse being suggested:

NKJ Rom10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

vs.

Rom10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher unless the Word supernaturally opens their ears?

Change and/or explain to your heart's content.
Click to expand...

What was the fall of Adam centered upon?

Choice.
 
Cameron143 said:
But that faith doesn't come by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
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They did not have books back then.
They did not have TV.
Furthermore, they did not have radio.

How did they get a message in those days?

By a messenger.
A man with a message.
Who did what?
"Spoke."
 
Cameron143 said:
Faith is the result of hearing, and hearing comes from the word of God. So it is the word of God that produces faith. This is the power of God unto salvation.
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The gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe (Rom 1:16).

Romans 10:

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

vss 14-15 – reminds me of 1 Cor 1:21 it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe ... God's chosen method of delivering the gospel is through preaching ... faithful men and women who heed God's instruction.

vs 16 – not all obey ... which is why Isaiah said "Lord, who has believed our report". Those who believe the Word of God will obey the Word of God i.e. believe the "report" (the gospel).

vs 17 – Faith is confidence in the "report" ... hear the Word of God and confidently heed the Word of God. Faith is trusting God, the Author of Scripture ... He is faithful and He will keep those promises He has made. And please note, the word "cometh" is not in the text. it was added by translators ... the verse reads "faith by hearing and hearing by Word of God".

From KJV Bible Commentary:

We must understand that hearing alone does not bring salvation, but faith in the message heard does. The heathen is not saved by looking at a tree and conceptualizing a god-form represented in that tree. The moralist is not saved by leading a moral life-style. Salvation comes when the message of the gospel is preached, believed, and then confessed by men. That message must come from the Word of God (or "Word of Christ").​
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