Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Genez]

I do hope you get over whatever is the underlying emotional problems you have.

Your only making yourself worse by lashing out all the time.

Best thing you can do mate is learn to be more tolerant,

Anyhow you have a nice evening

You think I am lashing out??????????

Please? Put me on Ignore.

 

[cv5]

Never mind mind it doesn't matter but we can at least agree that scripture is truth yes? So if the scriptures say something we should listen correct? so if I am to understand correctly the scriptures that specifically say that no one comes to Christ unless the father draws them should be as it says so in my understanding at least this alone should be enough to prove that one requires his leading to come to salvation thus the flesh which only desires the things of the flesh is not capable of seeking God by their own volition

God DOES NOT act as a proxy here:

-eating the Passover
-putting the Blood on the doorpost and lintel
-Crossing the Red Sea
-Crossing the Jordan

Furthermore, God NEVER forced Israel to keep His covenant, sacrifices, ordinances. They ONLY did so by acts of their own free will and by their OWN FAITHFULNESS.

Lev 1:3 - If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

[Lev 22:18, 21, 23 KJV] 18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever [he be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering; ... 21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish [his] vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein. ... 23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer [for] a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

[Lev 23:38 KJV] 38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

[Num 15:3 KJV] 3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:

[Num 29:39 KJV] 39 These [things] ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

[Deu 12:6, 17 KJV] 6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: ... 17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:

[Deu 16:10 KJV] 10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give [unto the LORD thy God], according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
[Deu 23:23 KJV] 23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; [even] a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

[2Ch 31:14 KJV] 14 And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, [was] over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.

[Ezr 1:4 KJV] 4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that [is] in Jerusalem.

[Ezr 3:5 KJV] 5 And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

[Ezr 7:13, 16 KJV] 13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and [of] his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee. ... 16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which [is] in Jerusalem:

[Ezr 8:28 KJV] 28 And I said unto them, Ye [are] holy unto the LORD; the vessels [are] holy also; and the silver and the gold [are] a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

[Psa 119:108 KJV] 108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

 

[Kroogz]

Hope you like a lot of heat; for the only place you and the mouse in your pocket will see Cain is in the lake of fire (1Jn 3:12; Jude 11).

Got chapter and verse for that, since Cain, like the Christ-hating Pharisees, did not belong to God but belonged to the devil?

Your doctrine belongs in the Lake of Fire. You believe it.........Are you going to the Lake of Fire? No.

You DISMISS Gods discipline. You dismiss the harsh words and very serious consequences of believers who do not follow His plan for their lives.

All the calvies and Armins have is "not really saved" or "lose salvation."

 

[cv5]

Go ahead Calvinists. Continue to expose you intransigence and illiteracy.

[Ezr 7:13, 16 KJV] 13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and [of] his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee. ... 16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which [is] in Jerusalem:

 

[Blain]

Christ issues declarative COMMANDS that are non-negotiable. Make a list.
Those who exercise FAITH in His authority, BELIEVE Him and do what He says, are doing His will.

You hyper-Calvinists are living in a fantasy world. One that requires no personal belief, no personal faith, no personal seeking, no personal asking, no personal entering the Door.

There is no reason to think that the Scripture portrays God ENTERING the Door on behalf of the sinner (or acting as a proxy to fulfill any other Divine directive either).

Not only that, these Calvinist think that Christ is doing the ENTERING for them.....before they were ever born,
without them even being aware of it!

Jhn 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Firstly I am not a calvinist secondly you throw that insult around sd if it applies to anyone who you disagree with third and this is important the scriptures are the ones who say what I am saying it comes from the mouth of Jesus himself and from Paul as well so your beef is with them not me

The natural man does not seek the kingdom of God unless the father first draws them period no if and or but's here your spiteful remarks only dig your hole deeper if you want to insult people by labeling them a calvinist then go to reddit

 

[Genez]

Not only that, these Calvinist think that Christ is doing the ENTERING for them.....before they were ever born, without them even being aware of it!

Jhn 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Technically... we were chosen in Him before the foundations of the world. (Ephesians 1:4)
God's omniscience enables God alone to know such a thing.

That does not mean God chose us to believe.
But, rather. Chose us because He knew we would believe.

Why, "chosen in Him?"
Well?
Where was Eve before Adam was placed into a deep sleep?
The woman was?
"In Adam."

We are now "in Christ."
For we were chosen to be the Bride of Christ.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So, why did you write what you did in 33,298!? I was not responding to what you wrote in 32, 858!

Rufus ... you replied to Post 32,858 at Post 32,931 ... I replied to you at Post 32,980 ... the discussion has been ongoing for a while now.

What I submitted in Post 33,298 is a continuation of the discussion ... do you need reminders of what has been discussed prior or do you think you can follow the conversation ... holy moly, to coin a phrase, Rufus "Perhaps you should be kind to yourself and check yourself into a mental institution to see what's wrong with your memory and why you can't connect cognitive dots too well either".

As I stated in response to that very nice suggestion, "while I appreciate your concern for my mental health and wellbeing ... perhaps you should consider a remedial reading course for your comprehension issues ... I just walked you through the same issue relating to a different point a couple days ago Rufus ... just sayin' "

Are you now denying that you wrote what you did in 33,298?

sigh ... Rufus, I pointed out the error of your claim ...

Rufus said:​

Take RDBD, as an example. Originally, she told us that Jesus prayed only for the 11. Then she finally had to admit that He did pray for a second group, never thanking me for pointing this truth out, since she's too proud to explicitly and publicly admit to any of her errors.​

So, now that you know I addressed the fullness of who the Lord Jesus Christ prayed for, it appears that it is you, Rufus, who is "too proud to explicitly and publicly admit to any of [his] errors". You're the one who continuously reminds us of your humility ... there is absolutely no evidence of your humility in your ongoing denial of what has been discussed in the last couple of weeks.

Rufus said:​

There is an age old Maxim that basically says: Liars need good memories! Better check yourself into a mental rehab center ASAP! Or if you didn't intentionally lie, then you are one very confused person, which bad theology also tends to do.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

The confusion is on your part as you seem to have overlooked/forgotten what was submitted 5 days prior to the date Post 33,298 was submitted.​

​

I won't go so far as to insinuate that you are the liar who "needs a good memory!" ... smh​

I gave you a pass on your statement yesterday as I figured you had overlooked or forgotten what I had posted ... today I'm leaning more toward the "age old Maxim" on your part ... you are the "very confused person, which bad theology also tends to do".

And again, what part of Jn 17:20-21 can you not understand!?

John 17:20-21
20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
NIV

Again, I ask: Why do you conflate "those" and "their"? And v. 20 is talking about believers -- not merely knowers.

The prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ at the crucial time just prior to His crucifixion begins in vs 2 and ends in vs 26.

If you can, try to take in the whole of the prayer before you dissect it into your same ole, same ole talking points which have no bearing on the issues about which the Lord Jesus Christ prayed the night He was taken to be tried / crucifiled.

And what part of "my prayer is not for THEM alone ( the11) can't you understand?

And in v. 21, Jesus prayed for the unity of both groups -- those who would initially evangelize (the 11) and those who would believe their gospel message (the Gentile world). I suppose you will also deny the Great Commission with which Jesus charged the 11?

continue reading, Rufus ...

John 17:20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The Lord Jesus Christ prayed that those who believe in Him would be one ... the Father in the Son ... the Son in the Father ... the believers one in us (the Father and the Son) ... that the world may know that Thou hast sent me.

An unbeliever reading this thread ... would he or she know that the believers who post in this thread are one in us ??? ... would the unbelieving reader know that Thou [God] hast sent Me [the Lord Jesus Christ] ??? ... I don't think so ... not the way some treat their fellow brothers and sisters ... you may enjoy feeding your flesh, but you remain a poor witness to those who do not yet know that the Father sent the Son ...

You just don't want to believe Jesus' prayer because it wrecks FWT!

I have asked you before and I will ask you now ... what is your definition of "FWT!" ?


*******************

repeating again ...

reneweddaybyday said:​

All you have done in your little foray into your "Good Shepherd Discourse" is this, Rufus ...​

You have completely proven that what I stated in Post 33,320 was true and accurate:​

reneweddaybyday said:​

your reply in 33,306 does not refute anything posted in 33,298.​

​

you veer away from the point concerning the inestimable value of the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ and its sufficiency to cover the sin of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ...​

​

you veer away from the point concerning the breadth, length, depth, and height of God's incomprehensible love ...​

​

you veer away from what is written in John 17 ... what the Lord Jesus Christ taught His apostles on the very night He allowed Himself to be taken to be crucified ... to conflate it with what is written in John 10 ... what the Lord Jesus Christ taught the pharisees who overheard Him speak to the blind man He had just led to faith ...​

​

you veer away from the fact that what I believe does not equal my having "perverted" anything written in Scripture ...​

​

your continuous reverting back to your same ole, same ole "talking points" due to your inability to engage in meaningful dialogue is duly noted.​

repeat ... "your continuous reverting back to your same ole, same ole "talking points" due to your inability to engage in meaningful dialogue is duly noted".​

.

 

[Blain]

God DOES NOT act as a proxy here:

-eating the Passover
-putting the Blood on the doorpost and lintel
-Crossing the Red Sea
-Crossing the Jordan

Furthermore, God NEVER forced Israel to keep His covenant, sacrifices, ordinances. They ONLY did so by acts of their own free will and by their OWN FAITHFULNESS.

Lev 1:3 - If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

[Lev 22:18, 21, 23 KJV] 18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever [he be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering; ... 21 And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish [his] vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein. ... 23 Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer [for] a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

[Lev 23:38 KJV] 38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

[Num 15:3 KJV] 3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:

[Num 29:39 KJV] 39 These [things] ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

[Deu 12:6, 17 KJV] 6 And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: ... 17 Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:

[Deu 16:10 KJV] 10 And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give [unto the LORD thy God], according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
[Deu 23:23 KJV] 23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; [even] a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

[2Ch 31:14 KJV] 14 And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, [was] over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.

[Ezr 1:4 KJV] 4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that [is] in Jerusalem.

[Ezr 3:5 KJV] 5 And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

[Ezr 7:13, 16 KJV] 13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and [of] his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee. ... 16 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which [is] in Jerusalem:

[Ezr 8:28 KJV] 28 And I said unto them, Ye [are] holy unto the LORD; the vessels [are] holy also; and the silver and the gold [are] a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

[Psa 119:108 KJV] 108 Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Yes freely giving offerings to God is a thing just as freely worshipping him is as well but unto salvation is another matter offerings to God is still not the same as spiritual rebirth if it were then Christ would not have had to die for us on the cross no offerings to God is of the flesh entering into salvation of the kingdom is of the spirit

one can freely choose offer praise to God but even then if their hearts are not in him then it is spoken in vain and one can freely give sacrifices to the alter but this is still not free will unto salvation plenty gave offerings in Jesus's day even the Pharisee's but you saw how Jesus saw them so in conclusion you need to understand the seperation of the flesh and the spirit

 

[cv5]

Technically... we were chosen in Him before the foundations of the world. (Ephesians 1:4)

Wrong interpretation. That verse speaks only to the plan of God.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with God choosing anyone for salvation before they were born.

 

[cv5]

Yes freely giving offerings to God is a thing just as freely worshipping him is as well but unto salvation is another matter offerings to God is still not the same as spiritual rebirth if it were then Christ would not have had to die for us on the cross no offerings to God is of the flesh entering into salvation of the kingdom is of the spirit

one can freely choose offer praise to God but even then if their hearts are not in him then it is spoken in vain and one can freely give sacrifices to the alter but this is still not free will unto salvation plenty gave offerings in Jesus's day even the Pharisee's but you saw how Jesus saw them so in conclusion you need to understand the seperation of the flesh and the spirit

Nope. There were tons of Old Testament saints that were saved by faith.
Truth faith can only be manifested by an act free will. Anything Else is a fraud.

 

[Blain]

Nope. There were tons of Old Testament saints that were saved by faith.
Truth faith can only be manifested by an act free will. Anything Else is a fraud.

Except faith comes by hearing and by hearing the word of God so unless one somehow hears his words or he stirrs thir hearts they will not have faith because faith as the scriptures say comes from hearing the word of God.

The flesh does not produce faith because faith is spiritual

 

[Brasspen]

Do not throw fuel on the fire.

 

[Blain]

Do not throw fuel on the fire.

Hey buddy haven't seen you in a good wgile how have you been?

 

[Brasspen]

@Blain I have been around. I have given up the violin business, and turning to flutes.

 

[cv5]

Except faith comes by hearing and by hearing the word of God so unless one somehow hears his words or he stirrs thir hearts they will not have faith because faith as the scriptures say comes from hearing the word of God.

The flesh does not produce faith because faith is spiritual

Standardized Calvinist canned fallacy.
Looks like you are the container.

Tragic.

 

[cv5]

Technically... we were chosen in Him before the foundations of the world. (Ephesians 1:4)
God's omniscience enables God alone to know such a thing.

That does not mean God chose us to believe.
But, rather. Chose us because He knew we would believe.

Why, "chosen in Him?"
Well?
Where was Eve before Adam was placed into a deep sleep?
The woman was?
"In Adam."

We are now "in Christ."
For we were chosen to be the Bride of Christ.

And BTW, what Paul is saying is that the now revealed formerly mystery unique Church will be PRIVILEGED to unique and grand blessings superseding all those going before.

Such is the case WHENEVER the term "elected" or "elect" is used in conjunction with the Church. Every single time.

Privilege for all those who RECEIVE Him of their own free will.

 

[cv5]

Firstly I am not a calvinist secondly you throw that insult around sd if it applies to anyone who you disagree with third and this is important the scriptures are the ones who say what I am saying it comes from the mouth of Jesus himself and from Paul as well so your beef is with them not me

The natural man does not seek the kingdom of God unless the father first draws them period no if and or but's here your spiteful remarks only dig your hole deeper if you want to insult people by labeling them a calvinist then go to reddit

Natural man fallacy again?
Already debunked. Several different ways BTW. You CHOSE to ignore this post today. So now you are on ignore.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ercise-free-will.218061/page-783#post-5581086

 

[BillyBob]

Wrong interpretation. That verse speaks only to the plan of God.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with God choosing anyone for salvation before they were born.

Are you saying that God's plans often go sideways on Him, that He has lost control and needs the creature's cooperation in order to fulfill His plan?
Your teachers are not quite up-to-snuff!

 

[BillyBob]

So now you are on ignore.

Please put everyone on ignore! All you do is mumble nonsense anyway. . . . .

 

[BillyBob]

Rufus ... you replied to Post 32,858 at Post 32,931 ... I replied to you at Post 32,980 ... the discussion has been ongoing for a while now.

What I submitted in Post 33,298 is a continuation of the discussion ... do you need reminders of what has been discussed prior or do you think you can follow the conversation ... holy moly, to coin a phrase, Rufus "Perhaps you should be kind to yourself and check yourself into a mental institution to see what's wrong with your memory and why you can't connect cognitive dots too well either".

As I stated in response to that very nice suggestion, "while I appreciate your concern for my mental health and wellbeing ... perhaps you should consider a remedial reading course for your comprehension issues ... I just walked you through the same issue relating to a different point a couple days ago Rufus ... just sayin' "





sigh ... Rufus, I pointed out the error of your claim ...

Rufus said:​

Take RDBD, as an example. Originally, she told us that Jesus prayed only for the 11. Then she finally had to admit that He did pray for a second group, never thanking me for pointing this truth out, since she's too proud to explicitly and publicly admit to any of her errors.​

So, now that you know I addressed the fullness of who the Lord Jesus Christ prayed for, it appears that it is you, Rufus, who is "too proud to explicitly and publicly admit to any of [his] errors". You're the one who continuously reminds us of your humility ... there is absolutely no evidence of your humility in your ongoing denial of what has been discussed in the last couple of weeks.

Rufus said:​

There is an age old Maxim that basically says: Liars need good memories! Better check yourself into a mental rehab center ASAP! Or if you didn't intentionally lie, then you are one very confused person, which bad theology also tends to do.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

The confusion is on your part as you seem to have overlooked/forgotten what was submitted 5 days prior to the date Post 33,298 was submitted.​

​

I won't go so far as to insinuate that you are the liar who "needs a good memory!" ... smh​

I gave you a pass on your statement yesterday as I figured you had overlooked or forgotten what I had posted ... today I'm leaning more toward the "age old Maxim" on your part ... you are the "very confused person, which bad theology also tends to do".





The prayer of the Lord Jesus Christ at the crucial time just prior to His crucifixion begins in vs 2 and ends in vs 26.

If you can, try to take in the whole of the prayer before you dissect it into your same ole, same ole talking points which have no bearing on the issues about which the Lord Jesus Christ prayed the night He was taken to be tried / crucifiled.





continue reading, Rufus ...

John 17:20-23

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The Lord Jesus Christ prayed that those who believe in Him would be one ... the Father in the Son ... the Son in the Father ... the believers one in us (the Father and the Son) ... that the world may know that Thou hast sent me.

An unbeliever reading this thread ... would he or she know that the believers who post in this thread are one in us ??? ... would the unbelieving reader know that Thou [God] hast sent Me [the Lord Jesus Christ] ??? ... I don't think so ... not the way some treat their fellow brothers and sisters ... you may enjoy feeding your flesh, but you remain a poor witness to those who do not yet know that the Father sent the Son ...





I have asked you before and I will ask you now ... what is your definition of "FWT!" ?


*******************

repeating again ...

reneweddaybyday said:​

All you have done in your little foray into your "Good Shepherd Discourse" is this, Rufus ...​

​

You have completely proven that what I stated in Post 33,320 was true and accurate:​

reneweddaybyday said:​

your reply in 33,306 does not refute anything posted in 33,298.​

​

you veer away from the point concerning the inestimable value of the offering of the Lord Jesus Christ and its sufficiency to cover the sin of all mankind ... all descendants of Adam ...​

​

you veer away from the point concerning the breadth, length, depth, and height of God's incomprehensible love ...​

​

you veer away from what is written in John 17 ... what the Lord Jesus Christ taught His apostles on the very night He allowed Himself to be taken to be crucified ... to conflate it with what is written in John 10 ... what the Lord Jesus Christ taught the pharisees who overheard Him speak to the blind man He had just led to faith ...​

​

you veer away from the fact that what I believe does not equal my having "perverted" anything written in Scripture ...​

​

your continuous reverting back to your same ole, same ole "talking points" due to your inability to engage in meaningful dialogue is duly noted.​

repeat ... "your continuous reverting back to your same ole, same ole "talking points" due to your inability to engage in meaningful dialogue is duly noted".​

.

Just a suggestion. . . Many of your posts are lengthy and are replying to 10 different things with your comments sandwiched in between. Therefore, I generally do not read them and I'm probably not the only one who skips them for that very reason. Just saying. . .