Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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The reason God knows all things is because He has decreed all things...

That is "A" backwards!

The reason God decreed all things is because He knows all things
Not, He know all things because He decreed all things!

He knows all possible things that might have/ could have/ taken place.
He knows if he gave you 1000 chances to get something right?
What it would be in the end what your ultimate choice would be.

It is for the efficient use of time that He has decrees.
His decrees have narrowed down all possible things that might have been, into what He determined will be all actual things to take place.

Have a nice Day....
 
Are you asking for total allegiance to your doctrine now?

I don't believe that is what I asked Jordon. See my quote above which was limited to three passages of scripture.

What about you, sir: Do you believe what those three passages teach?[/QUOTE]

I will always belive what the Bible teaches. I.will not always believe what a man thinks the Bible teaches
 
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I will always believe what the Bible teaches. I will not always believe what a man thinks the Bible teaches

I got something simple for you.

How do you believe about Matthew 4:3?
What does the Word of God you read tell you concerning that verse?
Why was it said?


The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

What was Satan wishing to accomplish?
Why did he say that?
 
Romans 6:15-23
New International Version

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

John 8:32
New International Version

32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Deuteronomy 30:19
New International Version

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
 
I got something simple for you.

How do you believe about Matthew 4:3?
What does the Word of God you read tell you concerning that verse?
Why was it said?


The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

What was Satan wishing to accomplish?
Why did he say that?

To try to say the bread is more important than the source of the bread. Playing off his hunger which is a fleshly issue. The "if" is strange since he knew who Jesus was. He was probably trying to temp his flesh in the form of hunger over rule who he was. It was a flesh vs God type of a situation. All three of those temptations were appealing to the man nature of Jesus.
 
Romans 6:15-23
New International Version

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

John 8:32
New International Version

32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Deuteronomy 30:19
New International Version

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
nice scripture the key to understanding is thanks be to God who's living active word helped our hearts to obey 🙂
 
To try to say the bread is more important than the source of the bread. Playing off his hunger which is a fleshly issue. The "if" is strange since he knew who Jesus was. He was probably trying to temp his flesh in the form of hunger over rule who he was. It was a flesh vs God type of a situation. All three of those temptations were appealing to the man nature of Jesus.
There's probably some other meaning to it, maybe something like satan was stone that wanted the bread of life.
 
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To try to say the bread is more important than the source of the bread. Playing off his hunger which is a fleshly issue. The "if" is strange since he knew who Jesus was. He was probably trying to temp his flesh in the form of hunger over rule who he was. It was a flesh vs God type of a situation. All three of those temptations were appealing to the man nature of Jesus.


I had to learn this lesson one day...
And, it stunned me.

We read normally translations done in English.
The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek.
And, sometimes, in Aramaic.

The Greek language of the Bible was developed ( in part) for debates.
In the Greek when the Greeks saw the word "if" we today can not presume to know what was being said.
There were several syntactical conditions that could render the word "if' in various ways..

Depending upon the Greek wording, "if" could mean....

A.) If it were so, but it is not."
B.) If it is so. And, it is so.
C. If.. I wish it were so, but it is not.
D. If... Maybe it will, and maybe it will not be so.


The Greek found in Matthew 4:3... To the Greek mind?
Would have been understood in this manner.

The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God (and you are), tell these stones to become bread.”

Satan was not trying to get Jesus to prove that he really was the Son of God.
For Satan already knew Jesus was the Son of God.

What Satan wanted Jesus to do was for him to stop manifesting himself as a man.
Because, as a man, Jesus would qualify as the perfect sacrifice for man's atonement.

Satan might have not understood what Jesus' intention was.
But, he keenly noted that Jesus was determined to remain in the state of being as a man!

To successfully tempt Jesus to turn the stones into bread?
Would have made Jesus stop being as a man. Causing him to take back up his powers of being God.

Now? If Jesus took back up his life as being God?
In that moment he did?
It would have disqualified Jesus to die as a man, for all men.

All Satan could know was that for some reason the one he knew as having great powers
in the past, was now carefully remaining in the self limiting state of being as a man.
Satan knew that Jesus was up to something, and after figuring out what Jesus wanted to remain being as?
Wanted to keep poking around to see if he could discover what it was Jesus was up to.

Jesus did not let Satan know why he was remaining always being as a man.
That shock was to be made known to Satan only after Jesus successfully died as man's perfect substitute on the Cross.
If Satan knew the real reason why Jesus was always being as a man?
Satan would have never allowed for Jesus to die on the Cross!

Jesus knew how to righteously keep His secret, perfectly!

No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined
for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Corinthians 2:7-8​
 
I had to learn this lesson one day...
And, it stunned me.

We read normally translations done in English.
The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek.
And, sometimes, in Aramaic.

The Greek language of the Bible was developed ( in part) for debates.
In the Greek when the Greeks saw the word "if" we today can not presume to know what was being said.
There were several syntactical conditions that could render the word "if' in various ways..

Depending upon the Greek wording, "if" could mean....

A.) If it were so, but it is not."
B.) If it is so. And, it is so.
C. If.. I wish it were so, but it is not.
D. If... Maybe it will, and maybe it will not be so.


The Greek found in Matthew 4:3... To the Greek mind?
Would have been understood in this manner.

The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God (and you are), tell these stones to become bread.”

Satan was not trying to get Jesus to prove that he really was the Son of God.
For Satan already knew Jesus was the Son of God.

What Satan wanted Jesus to do was for him to stop manifesting himself as a man.
Because, as a man, Jesus would qualify as the perfect sacrifice for man's atonement.

Satan might have not understood what Jesus' intention was.
But, he keenly noted that Jesus was determined to remain in the state of being as a man!

To successfully tempt Jesus to turn the stones into bread?
Would have made Jesus stop being as a man. Causing him to take back up his powers of being God.

Now? If Jesus took back up his life as being God?
In that moment he did?
It would have disqualified Jesus to die as a man, for all men.

All Satan could know was that for some reason the one he knew as having great powers
in the past, was now carefully remaining in the self limiting state of being as a man.
Satan knew that Jesus was up to something, and after figuring out what Jesus wanted to remain being as?
Wanted to keep poking around to see if he could discover what it was Jesus was up to.

Jesus did not let Satan know why he was remaining always being as a man.
That shock was to be made known to Satan only after Jesus successfully died as man's perfect substitute on the Cross.
If Satan knew the real reason why Jesus was always being as a man?
Satan would have never allowed for Jesus to die on the Cross!

Jesus knew how to righteously keep His secret, perfectly!

No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined
for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Corinthians 2:7-8​

I have heard that many times and I am basically in agreement. However when worded like Satan would not have killed Jesus had he known. I dont think he had a choice in what Jesus did or didnt do with his life. Take for instance when they were questioning him. What he said in Mark 14⁶²-⁶⁴ he was telling them who he was. They took it as blasphemy a death penalty offense. They would have killed him all while thinking they were doing God a servise. Regardless of what supernatural strings Satan was or wasent pulling. Jesus knew his purpose and what had to be done.
 
It seems to me that every single man born into this world will reject God, unless the Spirit renews them.
I understand that is what you believe. I believe no one seeks after God, which is why God makes Himself known to mankind and when God reveals Himself, I do not believe every descendant of Adam rejects God. Those who reject after God reaches out are the ones who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.




BillyBob said:
Until the Spirit works in you, you will never have a desire for God. John 3:3
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

there is no difference between "see" and "desire" ?

.
 
Rufus said:
In fact, the godless rulers of this world wield more effectual power than Jesus does!​


reneweddaybyday said:
lie​


No, it's not a lie
yes, it is a lie.

apparently you do not believe what is written in Scripture concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.




Rufus said:
according to all the FWers who are closet deists.
more fallacious name-calling on your part.




Rufus said:
You shouldn't forget that God isn't an actual Savior -- only a potential one, since in FWT it's the sinner's "freewill" that effectually puts him over the finish line. God merely offers salvation to all men w/o exception.
there's a saying ... "repeat a lie often enough and people will eventually come to believe it as truth".

you've repeated your lie to yourself and you believe it's true ...

you've repeated your lie and others believe it's true ...

you've repeated your lie and others do not believe it's true.

I do not believe your lie.

God is "an actual Savior"

your claim that "it's the the sinners "freewill" that effectually puts him over the finish line" is a lie. It is the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation.

"God merely offers salvation to all men w/o exception" is actually true ... but there's no "merely" about it. All the way back to Gen 3 with both Adam and Eve, God reached out ... reaches out now ... will continue to reach out in the future ... to mankind and mankind either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

And I do not want to get into another discussion with you concerning Adam and Eve. I believe both Adam and Eve believed God ... I believe the offering of God was sufficient to cleanse both Adam and Eve from sin ... I believe both Adam and Eve were clothed by God to cover the shame of their sin ... you disagree.

You believe only Eve was the beneficiary of God's offering ... I disagree.

.
 
John8-47Matthew13-11-2Corinthians4-4Romans8-9b.png

“Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.” The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. John 8 v 47; Matthew 13 v 11; 2 Corinthians ch 4 v 4; Romans 8 v 9b
 
Ephesians2-1-3-1-Peter4-3b.png

Ephesians 2 v 1-3, 1 Peter 4 v 3b ~ You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.... living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing, and detestable idolatry.
 
Which means that you too, like Genez, reject the truths taught in Ps 146:9; Job 5:12-13; 2Thes 2:7. See how much you really have in common with Genez. Pretty soon I'll have both of you joined at the hip! :LOL: You're both closest deists.

And, yes, God allowed two people to be killed because everyone's life is in God's hands. God alone numbers everyone's days (Dan 5:23). But at the same time, God preserved Trump's life since the number of his days did not expire at that time. God, evidently, wanted to raise up Trump as the ruler of this nation.
I think you probably qualify for being the biggest deist here to be honest,

Just thinking about your post some more, you say God has decreed all of mans actions, what need Does God have to then intervene in your life ?

As deists believe God does not need to intervene. 🤔

It sounds like you may be thinking God changed your heart but taking that to a whole new level.
 
Rufus said:
In fact, the godless rulers of this world wield more effectual power than Jesus does!​


reneweddaybyday said:
lie​



yes, it is a lie.

apparently you do not believe what is written in Scripture concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.





more fallacious name-calling on your part.





there's a saying ... "repeat a lie often enough and people will eventually come to believe it as truth".

you've repeated your lie to yourself and you believe it's true ...

you've repeated your lie and others believe it's true ...

you've repeated your lie and others do not believe it's true.

I do not believe your lie.

God is "an actual Savior"

your claim that "it's the the sinners "freewill" that effectually puts him over the finish line" is a lie. It is the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God unto salvation.

"God merely offers salvation to all men w/o exception" is actually true ... but there's no "merely" about it. All the way back to Gen 3 with both Adam and Eve, God reached out ... reaches out now ... will continue to reach out in the future ... to mankind and mankind either believes or suppresses the truth in unrighteousness.

And I do not want to get into another discussion with you concerning Adam and Eve. I believe both Adam and Eve believed God ... I believe the offering of God was sufficient to cleanse both Adam and Eve from sin ... I believe both Adam and Eve were clothed by God to cover the shame of their sin ... you disagree.

You believe only Eve was the beneficiary of God's offering ... I disagree.

.
Yep it sounds more like he favoring the idea he needs to show that eve wasn't responsible for the fall of man, because of the hurt that women often have over the way men treat them.

Or that maybe people have blamed eve completely so he's being the hero to gain favor if you ask me.

The truth is both eve and Adam where punished which means they where both guilty of something, how ever I believe when he clothed them both he was still loving them both.

Which means God is still life to the fallen. And the fallen are still in Gods life.

It's really important to understand tho that God decreed a plan and will before the events happened as to what to do.

I personally go with all names are in his book of life until blotted out. Because God is still life to the spiritualy fallen

Revelation 3.5, but his enabling grace comes first, by him knowing your future
 
But Deut 30:6 has God actually DOING something for his covenant people (not to be confused with the world). Again, knowing and doing aren't the same thing.
Yep that's right but he still built there hearts up leading upto Deuteronomy 30.6 in the same way to those who where refused entry to the promise land 🙂

How does anyone live without God Rufus, but also God does not want you to live without him,

All tho you seem to be applying that just to yourself
 
Free Will is why Evil came about

If God is Pure and Holy and free will was not possible no sin would have come about.

or If we do not have free will then all sin and suffering would be God's fault.
 
Free Will is why Evil came about

If God is Pure and Holy and free will was not possible no sin would have come about.

or If we do not have free will then all sin and suffering would be God's fault.
there's a counter argument to that 🙂

Freedom of thought is not free will

Man was created with Gods will but also freedom of thought

Free will of mans flesh was born after sin entered because frew will is the law of sin in man.

Basically they sinned because they had a choice at first
Then after they made the wrong choice, mans choice was no longer valid to God. 🙂
 
“O Jerusalem… How often I have longed to gather your children together… but you were not willing.” (Matt. 23:37)

“God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever will believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
(John 3:16)

“I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses; now choose life… Love the Lord your God.” (Deut. 30:19b-20a)